My Venture into GUE - Another view

[Jax]

Generally speaking, a good instructor isn't going to teach you a skill ... they're going to show you how to learn it. The real learning comes from performing the skill until your body knows what to do. No matter how much in-water time you get in the class, it usually won't be enough to achieve the requisite level of precision.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

That would have been wonderful. :daydreaming:

 

[Cave Diver]

I don't know, CD -- five and a half years ago, when I took Fundies, we had one guy with 8 dives, and another with 16 in the class. I had 60, and about 20 dives in a single tank backplate/long hose rig. The most experienced divers were in doubles and had dive counts in the hundreds. Nobody passed that class, either.

That was kind of my point. You get a mixed bag of people in the class, but unless they specifically state their experience level, a lot of the responses they get may not be applicable to them. A lot of people are just realizing for the first time that lobzilla had a small number of dives, so I would expect the follow up responses will change a bit now based on that.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sadly, two of them don't come on the board anymore.

In spite of several respected GUE advocates opining that our class was not 'normal', that given that one instructor was an intern, it should have been only three people, and that the three of us that are opining in this thread are all believing we should have had more in-water time (and seconded by others), now it becomes turned around to be the students' fault.

I took this class for one reason - to see what all this GUE hype was about. I posted my trip report after conferring with others as to the appropriateness of the location and tone of the report. I was surprised and delighted at the support from others . . . notably the West coast.

However, the ugliness from those who cannot (or refuse) to believe that there may be a flaw in their beloved system brings this around full circle -- if this is the 'best' of diving, I don't want to dive like that. I just want to be a more skilled diver, and the snide remarks from the 'elite' about practicing my skills in a pool just proliferate the 'holier-than-thou' image. (West Coast excepted, thank you! )

Jax, I can't speak first-hand, because I wasn't there. But having spoken to some folks who were, it doesn't sound like this was a "typical" class experience ... there were some dynamics going on that were beyond your control. Frankly, my first Fundies class had a dynamic that also prevented the class from being what I'd call "typical". But I can also say that to a certain extent, that was also beyond the instructor's control.

Like it or not, even the best instructors (and both of my Fundies instructors were people who I considered excellent) will sometimes have a class that they will look back on afterward and wince. Nobody likes it ... but we're human, and it happens. It's one data point. It's not a good way to judge either the instructor or the agency. It sucks when it happens to you ... particularly going all that way and paying all that money. But I gotta believe that your instructor's reading this thread and wincing too ... because I also gotta believe he's a far better instructor overall than some of the comments in here would indicate. And no instructor wants to see their students complaining about substandard training.

Hopefully, you voiced your concerns to him as well as posting them here ... although I've noticed him following this thread, one-on-one discussion might be a more beneficial way to come to terms with the things that you were unhappy with ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ScubaSteve]

Generally correct, but in Jax' case there was a caveat. She dove a very buoyant suit (warm water wuss) with no air in the wing and a heavy tank on top. That is a stability nightmare.

Ae you implying that it is the instructor's fault (or GUE's) that Jax chose to dive the gear that she chose to dive? I can speak from experience that when you make drastic changes to gear, it takes a while to get the tweaks worked out. To jump into a class like fundies in an unknown configuration is not a recipe for fun or a passing grade IMO. I bet she still took a boatload of valuable information away from the course.....but only she can admit to that.

 

[Cave Diver]

Jax, I can't speak first-hand, because I wasn't there. But having spoken to some folks who were, it doesn't sound like this was a "typical" class experience ... there were some dynamics going on that were beyond your control. Frankly, my first Fundies class had a dynamic that also prevented the class from being what I'd call "typical". But I can also say that to a certain extent, that was also beyond the instructor's control.

So, I'm gonna pick on you a bit Bob... Mainly because you've brought up a point that was on my mind earlier and because you're an instructor who seems committed to quality teaching. Of course anyone else is free to jump in as well, but I'm especially interested in your thoughts.

Can a class that seemingly spins out of control actually be a better class? After all, we know that control when diving is an illusion - anything can go wrong at anytime. Yes, we have some influence over some of the variables, but it only takes a couple of things to turn an actual dive into a Charlie Foxtrot.

So, when you have a class like this, could it actually be a good thing in your opinion? Because the extra challenges involved add a degree of real world complexity?

 

[Jax]

Ae you implying that it is the instructor's fault (or GUE's) that Jax chose to dive the gear that she chose to dive? I can speak from experience that when you make drastic changes to gear, it takes a while to get the tweaks worked out. To jump into a class like fundies in an unknown configuration is not a recipe for fun or a passing grade IMO. I bet she still took a boatload of valuable information away from the course.....but only she can admit to that.

Lobzilla is not implying anything of the sort. I made the statement up front that I had made a critical mistake in not diving the single / drysuit more. Too bad it took until Wednesday to get around to trimming me out.

You'd lose that bet.

Everything 'taught' in that class I had already received from prior classes. I learned only 'the GUE way'.

 

[ScubaSteve]

You'd lose that bet.

Everything 'taught' in that class I had already received from prior classes. I learned only 'the GUE way'.

If you know it all then why did you fail? I am genuinely curious. You are the first person I have ever heard of that took absolutely nothing away from a Fundies class.

 

[Jax]

However, the ugliness from those who cannot (or refuse) to believe that there may be a flaw in their beloved system brings this around full circle -- if this is the 'best' of diving, I don't want to dive like that. I just want to be a more skilled diver, and the snide remarks from the 'elite' about practicing my skills in a pool just proliferate the 'holier-than-thou' image. (West Coast excepted, thank you! )

Hey -- I do not want to tar ALL the east with one brush -- there are some of you that have been most kind and supportive as well -- I've told you that in PMs, so you know who you are. God Bless you for that, as well.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So, I'm gonna pick on you a bit Bob... Mainly because you've brought up a point that was on my mind earlier and because you're an instructor who seems committed to quality teaching. Of course anyone else is free to jump in as well, but I'm especially interested in your thoughts.

Can a class that seemingly spins out of control actually be a better class? After all, we know that control when diving is an illusion - anything can go wrong at anytime. Yes, we have some influence over some of the variables, but it only takes a couple of things to turn an actual dive into a Charlie Foxtrot.

So, when you have a class like this, could it actually be a good thing in your opinion? Because the extra challenges involved add a degree of real world complexity?

I can only speak from personal experience on that subject. I've had some classes that I wasn't happy with ... not because of student performance, but because either I had a bad day or something beyond my control caused the class to provide less than I wanted it to. In those cases, I wouldn't call it a "better" class ... but it can make me a better instructor because it helps me anticipate those circumstances and prepare for them better.

I had one of those classes just this past Saturday, in fact.

Whenever it happens, I make it a point to address the situation with the student(s), let them know this wasn't how it was intended to take place, and offer a make-up session at my own expense. My students are paying for training ... if something occurs that causes me to fail to provide that training to my expectations, it's up to me to make it right.

In that respect, I think both myself and the student(s) get something positive out of the experience ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cave Diver]

Everything 'taught' in that class I had already received from prior classes. I learned only 'the GUE way'.

The way that reads to me, with your quotations around taught, indicates that you don't feel you learned any skills during the class. Am I interpreting that correctly?