My Venture into GUE - Another view

[ScubaSteve]

 

[Scott L]

:w-t-f: Where did you get that?

Post #2...

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/371784-my-venture-into-gue-another-view.html

 

[Lobzilla]

My rub is with the notion perpetuated on this board that everyone, including people who want or need a tech pass, should enter GUE-F 'with an open mind' and no prior preparation.

I'm not sure where you get that from. I've seen several suggestions in this thread alone that you should have a few dives in the equipment you plan to dive before entering class. That seems like preparation to me.

John,

You are certainly not one of the people I had in mind when I made that statement.

But let's just look at your words "few dives in the equipment you plan to dive". Firstly, this is only one of many prerequisites you should IMO bring to this class. Secondly, what exactly does "few" mean. If we follow TSandM's advice of at least 20 that would have been well over 60% of my total dive count at that time and would have required me to walk out of my open water checkout in doubles. I would not call this "a few dives".

I would advise any prospective GUE-F student who is looking for a Tec pass to be able to assume 5-10 degree nose down trim without ending up on his/her head in the configuration (tanks, suit, etc.) they are diving. If you can do this, you have a chance to hold zero all day long - as you will most likely need to. (Everybody, please keep in mind that I am talking about suggestions to people who are after the skills that merit a Tec pass.)

 

[Jax]

I assume that the silent class attendees were smart enough to anticipate that some notions on this board are impervious to facts, evidence, and reason. They most likely decided not to waste their time in an ultimately futile battle.

Sadly, two of them don't come on the board anymore.

In spite of several respected GUE advocates opining that our class was not 'normal', that given that one instructor was an intern, it should have been only three people, and that the three of us that are opining in this thread are all believing we should have had more in-water time (and seconded by others), now it becomes turned around to be the students' fault.

I took this class for one reason - to see what all this GUE hype was about. I posted my trip report after conferring with others as to the appropriateness of the location and tone of the report. I was surprised and delighted at the support from others . . . notably the West coast.

However, the ugliness from those who cannot (or refuse) to believe that there may be a flaw in their beloved system brings this around full circle -- if this is the 'best' of diving, I don't want to dive like that. I just want to be a more skilled diver, and the snide remarks from the 'elite' about practicing my skills in a pool just proliferate the 'holier-than-thou' image. (West Coast excepted, thank you! )

 

[TSandM]

I have never suggested that people go into Fundies with an open mind and no preparation. I have said that you should be comfortable in and familiar with the equipment you use in the class, and that the minimum requirement should be that you can remain still in the water long enough to watch demonstrations. Meeting those requirements will not mean that you are likely to end the class with a tech pass, especially if you are taking it with people you don't know and who have varying skills.

Coming into Fundies with little experience in doubles, no prior mentoring, and with unknown teammates is almost certainly a recipe for a provisional or rec pass. But not getting a tech pass does not mean the class was wasted or worthless! The very fact that the student falls short of standards for a pass means that there are things to learn, and things to improve, right?

Edited because I was posting at the same time Lobzilla was -- if 20 dives is 60% of your total dive count, then you were coming into Fundamentals with around 35 dives or so. I think expecting to exit the class with a tech pass with that low a dive count is probably overly optimistic. I really wish more people would take the class in a single tank configuration, where they are comfortable and trim issues are easier, and focus on the skills. A rec pass has an unlimited time to be converted to a tech pass, whereas a provisional puts a six month time limit on bringing your performance up to standards. I believe, and I know some GUE instructors agree with me (don't know where Bob sits on this) that it is much easier to transition into doubles with skills that are already solid, than it is to try to learn the skills with the confounding factor of uncooperative gear.

 

[Cave Diver]

John,

You are certainly not one of the people I had in mind when I made that statement.

But let's just look at your words "few dives in the equipment you plan to dive".

I think one of the issues is the generalized use of "everyone." If someone (not specifying you) comes on the board and says "I plan to take fundies, what should I do to prepare?" then you're going to get a bunch of generic answers, many of which will be the same. That will give the appearance that "everyone" is in agreement.

However, I think that there is more of a trending towards people with lower and lower dive counts taking fundies class. It used to be only people who were already looking down towards the tech path were interested in the training and a lot of the mindset and advice comes from that perspective.

IOW, a lot of people give advice under the notion that fundies interested people have more experience than they actually do. So the expectation there is that they've already got a lot of the basic skills down and now they just need to nail the fine tuning.

That's where the no preparation advice comes in, because if you start trying to prepare for the class and you focus on the wrong things, it's going to make it that much more frustrating once you're in class.

People asking (and giving advice) need to qualify their comments more regarding dives and skill levels. That will help tailor the responses to the specific needs of the individual looking for answers.

 

[TSandM]

I don't know, CD -- five and a half years ago, when I took Fundies, we had one guy with 8 dives, and another with 16 in the class. I had 60, and about 20 dives in a single tank backplate/long hose rig. The most experienced divers were in doubles and had dive counts in the hundreds. Nobody passed that class, either.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

John,

You are certainly not one of the people I had in mind when I made that statement.

But let's just look at your words "few dives in the equipment you plan to dive". Firstly, this is only one of many prerequisites you should IMO bring to this class. Secondly, what exactly does "few" mean. If we follow TSandM's advice of at least 20 that would have been well over 60% of my total dive count at that time and would have required me to walk out of my open water checkout in doubles. I would not call this "a few dives".

I would advise any prospective GUE-F student who is looking for a Tec pass to be able to assume 5-10 degree nose down trim without ending up on his/her head in the configuration (tanks, suit, etc.) they are diving. If you can do this, you have a chance to hold zero all day long - as you will most likely need to. (Everybody, please keep in mind that I am talking about suggestions to people who are after the skills that merit a Tec pass.)

This isn't in any intended as a criticism ... but I'm not at all sure that going into a Fundies class with as little in-water time as you have and expecting to come out with a tech pass is realistic. People pick up skills at their own pace, and some can do in 20 dives what others take 100 dives to do ... but a tech pass tends to require a certain precision that only comes with practice ... usually lots of practice.

Generally speaking, a good instructor isn't going to teach you a skill ... they're going to show you how to learn it. The real learning comes from performing the skill until your body knows what to do. No matter how much in-water time you get in the class, it usually won't be enough to achieve the requisite level of precision.

The problem with practicing skills prior to coming to class is that if you have practiced the skill incorrectly, it will then become even more difficult to learn it properly. GUE trained mentors can be incredibly helpful ... but unless they're trained to teach, it's very easy for them (with the best of intentions) to send you down a path that's going to make the class more difficult, rather than easier.

Having gone into my first Fundies class with about 900 dives ... probably a third of them diving with GUE-trained divers who were trying to be helpful ... I'm speaking from experience about that.

Taking a GUE class expecting to pass is the wrong approach. If you can manage the pass, all well and good ... but the expectation should be that you're going to come away from the class with a certain amount of "homework" that needs to be completed before you can perform the skills to a passing level.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jax]

Post #2...

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/371784-my-venture-into-gue-another-view.html

Where in this do you get that I elected to sit out? Just because I appreciated the chance to warm up? :w-t-f:

Day Three

.....Swim test day, in a cold hotel pool. This was the one part of Fundies about which I had serious doubts, because I seem to incur an exercise-induced asthma any time I get into cold water. (Def: cold is anything less than 80oF ) I managed to pant and hyperventilate my way through the swim test, but had no hopes for the underwater breath hold swim due to my panting and shivering. Strangely, I was able to pass by the third try . . . unexpected. That cheered me immensely.

.....Today, we went into the 20’ deep tank at the Scuba Club. Those on track for a possible tec pass did unconscious diver recovery, SMB shoot, S-drill and air-share ascent. I greatly appreciated all the time out of the water today, as I needed to warm up badly. Some got about 50 minutes in the tank, the rest of us got 20 minutes.

 

[Lobzilla]

I have never suggested that people go into Fundies with an open mind and no preparation.

Lynn, I did not have you in mind in my rant either. Below, as usual, you give sound advice.

I have said that you should be comfortable in and familiar with the equipment you use in the class, and that the minimum requirement should be that you can remain still in the water long enough to watch demonstrations. Meeting those requirements will not mean that you are likely to end the class with a tech pass, especially if you are taking it with people you don't know and who have varying skills.

Coming into Fundies with little experience in doubles, no prior mentoring, and with unknown teammates is almost certainly a recipe for a provisional or rec pass. But not getting a tech pass does not mean the class was wasted or worthless! The very fact that the student falls short of standards for a pass means that there are things to learn, and things to improve, right?

Edited because I was posting at the same time Lobzilla was -- if 20 dives is 60% of your total dive count, then you were coming into Fundamentals with around 35 dives or so. I think expecting to exit the class with a tech pass with that low a dive count is probably overly optimistic.

Let's just call it what it was - stupid. Especially in light of the fact that the instructor of record is also a pilot. In aviation we do not ever want to fail a check ride as it proves a lack of sound judgment of what challenges you should take on.

I really wish more people would take the class in a single tank configuration, where they are comfortable and trim issues are easier, and focus on the skills.

Generally correct, but in Jax' case there was a caveat. She dove a very buoyant suit (warm water wuss) with no air in the wing and a heavy tank on top. That is a stability nightmare.

A rec pass has an unlimited time to be converted to a tech pass, whereas a provisional puts a six month time limit on bringing your performance up to standards.

Another item where I did not do my proper homework. I thought the rec pass is and end in itself and that you have to redo the whole thing to get Tec. But anyway, I don't think that a single tank would have my life easier. Instead of having to learn leaning my head against a soft isolator knob I would have had to bash it against a hard regulator

I believe, and I know some GUE instructors agree with me (don't know where Bob sits on this) that it is much easier to transition into doubles with skills that are already solid, than it is to try to learn the skills with the confounding factor of uncooperative gear.