My friend just got her OW and she's been diagnosed with DCS

[Karibelle]

I think we've had a misunderstanding here. My original comments criticizing simultaneous instruction at the OW and AOW levels applied to a scenario (the incident in question) in which only three people were involved: instructor, basic OW student, and AOW student. I apologize if I didn't make that clear. I also want to point out that the OP hasn't yet verified whether that's an accurate representation of the people involved in this particular incident.

Fair enough, and in that case, I'd agree with you.

FWIW, I'm aware of the minimum instructor:student ratio (8:1 for basic OW) that PADI stipulates. I'd like to point out that there's a distinction between what PADI guidelines establish as minimum requirements, the number of OW students that a particular instructor can comfortably supervise, and the instructor:student ratio most conducive to learning.

Again, I agree. I'm not one for doing things just because the minimum standard required by my agency says I CAN.

Thanks for the discussion.

kari

 

[Damselfish]

She went deeper than 60 feet because it was dive the wreck day for the rest of the people on the charter, she wanted to go and paid for it, and it allowed the instructor to sign off on both the deep dive and wreck dive portion of my AOW while still keeping us together for the dive.

curious about this one - was the instructor also counting the same dive for deep and wreck?

 

[Bubbletrubble]

curious about this one - was the instructor also counting the same dive for deep and wreck?

I think the group did two dives at the wreck: one which counted towards deep and the other which counted towards wreck. At least that would be consistent with PADI standards.

It's possible that this instructor was signing off the AOW student on the other AOW dives (boat, UW nav, PPB?) while conducting OW class dives #3 and #4 for the basic OW student. FWIW, I don't know whether running classes in this way conforms to PADI standards. DevonDiver's quotation of PADI rules in this thread (Post #43) would seem to prohibit this kind of double-dipping.

 

[tholden1]

Well, both had a camera on that dive I think. I was doing the photography portion of my AOW and he was supposed to take pictures and then I was supposed to take pictures, and then we were supposed to compare. I didn't see the point since we were just taking pictures of different things with no coordination, and we didn't even compare until after all the dives because the primary instructor asked if we had done the comparison, and we hadn't.

But, there you go. Everyone had a camera. At least I think he did on that dive. Perhaps I'm confusing things though.

It forbidden by PADI standards - both for the student and the instructor.

 

[tholden1]

It's what she wanted. And, I've never seen an OW course done in Mexico. This was a first. Clearly, not a good idea, at least in this case.

I surely hope your friend heals well and gets to dive again, if she is really interested. So many things I could say, but most folks have already said them. Except that I would never take an open water course with a resort shop. I would be certified well before I went and would have been certified with an instructor I was comfortable with after I interviewed several of them.

 

[tholden1]

I'm pretty sure in my OW cert dives in a lake, they did not allow us to take cameras. I realize now how smart of a move that was.

tholden1, I don'y think anyone holds you at fault. Ultimately it was the divers choice to do what she did. I did feel the Instructor that was there also had a duty to sit explain to her the risks or step in and tell her not to accompany you on that dive and definetly handle the situation you described a lot better. With the camera there is no reason for the DS not to sell her the camera but the instructor absolutly should have told her she was not allowed to bring it with her. I know my LDS had told us we could not due to it being training and they didn't want us distracted.

 

[tholden1]

I will report this to PADI. I'm not going to copy a lawyer as you stated since my intent is not to sue these people. The woman that got DCS doesn't want to make waves. She blames herself. She doesn't realize that she's not totally to blame. I know on my OW certification dives not only would I not be allowed to take a camera with me, but my instructor would be right there all the time watching me like a hawk. At least, that was my experience.

So, she doesn't want to get the shop in trouble because she likes the instructors. Well, I like the instructors too. And, I don't want to get the shop in trouble either. But I've had some awesome instructors and I saw some things with this shop that I really didn't like. And, in my mind, running it by PADI isn't a bad thing, and may actually do some good.

I would trust this shop with an experienced diver for some charter dives. But, from what I've seen, this is not a place you want to get any sort of certifications. The fact that the term "flex skill" was used still sticks in my head. That was the first time I had ever even heard of that. When I got my OW certification, there were no "flex" skills. Training was not "optional", it was there to help save your life in the event that you needed it.

This was definitely a brand new experience for me. I'm not going to get a lawyer, or bash these guys publicly. But, I am going to run this by PADI to see what they have to say.

"Poorly run class" is an understatement. This was a joke. The shop violated numerous standards, was - in my opinion - negligent, unprofessional, and unethical. The point about it just being the way things are in

 

[tholden1]

They had a large group of people, and one person was OW, the other was AOW, and all the rest were there for a chartered dive and they had only two guys to deal with it.

Quite simply, they didn't have the resources to handle it in this way. So, they combined things, cut corners. There was no intent here. They didn't think it was best, it's just the only way they could think of doing it I guess.

The example you offered, which involves an instructor attempting to singlehandedly supervise both an OW and an AOW student, makes me wonder why an instructor would want to short-change both students. I don't get it. Why

 

[tholden1]

I asked the dive shop about that. I said that I was surprised that since she was at the surface for five minutes, that he didn't go to the surface. The shop said they weren't sure, but the instructors dive all day and in rescue training they teach that it's better to have one casualty, than two. So, the message there is that if the instructor had surfaced with her or after her, then he might have compromised his own safety and both of them would have been in trouble.

In my opinion though, we both could have surfaced and ended that dive for all three of us. If we had done that, and then got her on oxygen just to be safe then she might not have gotten DCS.

This was the dilema they faced because there was one guy trying to handle both of us.

Of course, maybe he was thinking the same thing as me, that the boat was coming to get her. That was what I was expecting as we watched from below.

Although my memory of events is not entirely sharp, I seem to recall that we did the nav dive of our AOW without the instructor even in the water with us. We had a marker and a course, and he watched our bubbles. We were, after all, certified divers. If the OP was doing some AOW dive where direct supervision wasn't required -- and IF HE HAD HIS OWN BUDDY -- I'm not sure standards were violated here. However, the instructor didn't have very good control, if he was unaware that the student had corked. Sometimes they DO cork, and no matter how fast you move, you may end up on the surface with them, but you should at least end up on the surface with them.

 

[tholden1]

Sounds accurate to me. From what I recall, not a whole lot was said. Maybe he asked her what happened and she said that she was messing with her camera. But, really there wasn't much to the discussion.

Could it have been a learning opportunity, yes. It might have embarrassed her and perhaps that's why he didn't go into detail about things. I don't know.

@TSandM: I think the instructor, OW student, and AOW student were diving as a threesome. In the accounts written by the OP, there's no mention of another buddy in the mix. Perhaps the OP can clarify this point.

Regardless of the standards violation issue, I still think we know enough to say that the instructor is guilty of exercising poor judgment. We know that on Class Dive #3 he allowed the OW student to bring along an UW camera. We know that, on the same dive, he was leading out in front...with the AOW student behind him...and the basic OW student lagging behind. With that configuration, the instructor is not in a position to intervene if the basic OW student experiences a loss of buoyancy control. We know that, after the basic OW student inadvertently ascended from approx. 50 fsw, the instructor watched passively from depth while the student realized what had happened, collected herself for a few minutes, and then re-descended to continue the dive. Based on the info shared by the OP, we don't actually know how fast her ascent was.

On a side note, I'm curious what was discussed during the instructor's post-dive debrief for the dive featuring the unplanned ascent. It would have been a great opportunity to discuss "good" buddy behavior, the importance of establishing formal buddy teams before the dive actually begins, the challenges/benefits of diving as a threesome, disadvantages of single-file lead-follow buddy configuration, buoyancy control tips, situational awareness, task-loading, risks of rapid ascent, the distinction between DCI and DCS, DCI/DCS symptomatology, and emergency procedures for a diver potentially suffering from DCI. Perhaps the OP can share with us what the instructor said.

A great deal can be learned from this incident.