It's poor judgment in SOME cases. Perhaps like the case in this post.
My friend just got her OW and she's been diagnosed with DCS
- Thread starter tholden1
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It's poor judgment in SOME cases. Perhaps like the case in this post.
a22shady
Contributor
tholden1, I don'y think anyone holds you at fault. Ultimately it was the divers choice to do what she did. I did feel the Instructor that was there also had a duty to sit explain to her the risks or step in and tell her not to accompany you on that dive and definetly handle the situation you described a lot better. With the camera there is no reason for the DS not to sell her the camera but the instructor absolutly should have told her she was not allowed to bring it with her. I know my LDS had told us we could not due to it being training and they didn't want us distracted.
DevonDiver
N/A
The exact PADI standard states:
This means that the AOW divers can be supervised directly by a Qualified Assistant - either another teaching status instructor, AI or a renewed PADI divemaster (not sure how many DMs in some locations ever bother to renew??).
Meanwhile, the OW course demands the direct supervision on a PADI teaching status instructor. This is defined in standards as:
Basically, it is acceptable for AOW divers to accompany OW divers - but both groups should have independant supervision. The instructor with the OW divers and another instructor/DM with the AOW students (except for Deep dive).
However, the instructor has overall responsibility for the safety of all divers.. and should also ensure that the co-location of two separate training courses does not detract from the quality of training of either of those courses.
"Poorly run class" is an understatement. This was a joke. The shop violated numerous standards, was - in my opinion - negligent, unprofessional, and unethical. The point about it just being the way things are in that region, is why they are that way. No one with balls enough to make regular reports to the certifying agencies. Accepting wrongs and excusing them as just the way things are does not in any way make them right.
To make a short list we have poor or no understanding of what proper buddy procedures are. With new divers this is mostly the fault of poor instruction and instructional practices. Not only did the divers buddy not stay in proper position but the instructor took no action. If the instructor tries to justify the inaction by saying he was with the actual AOW student and knew of the issues with the other diver he should not have allowed her to go on the dive. Hell no one even knew who they were buddied up with! IMO a very big deal in training.
On dive 3 the instructor, if I read this correctly, was trying to combine OW and AOW dives and was not in a position to stop the ascent of the OW student. Every good instructor on this board that I respect is always within reach of a student. Or has a certified assistant keeping a sharp eye on the divers. It also sounds as if they were being led single file. Another CF in my book. I do not do single file swims with students ever. I may not have a buddy but the students are always in position side by side. I am usually right next to them or just a little above. With individual lessons we are buddies. All skills are done within arms reach of me.
Here we have another instructor reinforcing poor procedures and even modeling them! But the worst part is I bet it's not the first time. Unless you guys were his very first students he's done this before and got away with it because no one filed a report and more importantly followed up on it. If one was filed the agency may have said bad boy, don;t do that again. And that was the end of it. Can I suggest you file a report and perhaps send a copy to someone else and note that you are copying it to them. Like maybe your lawyer. And see what kind of action gets taken then.
No one wants to see any good instructor or shop lose. But the bad ones should be driven out of business. For nearly three years now I have been doing what I can to make a difference in the way diver safety is viewed and practiced. It began with the who is responsible thread and another essay I did on Safe Diving Practices for my YMCA instructor exam. Since then I have written numerous articles on training, written a couple courses, and now my book. And it has all happened because of this kind of incident. There is no excuse for this stuff to go on other than it is allowed to. Not only by instructors, shops, and agencies but by the general diving public.
THis stuff is seen and the "it's not my place to do something" mentality takes over. Don't get involved, don't make waves, etc. And divers keep getting hurt and worse at the hands of these unscrupulous operators. I have a presentation to give in three weeks on diver responsibility. I just got a couple new slides for that out of this thread. THat is NOT a good thing but it seems to be a necessary one. I know as much as anyone and perhaps more than many how caring we are as a community, how generous, how unselfish, and how we look out for one another in many ways. So why not in this one? When was the last time you saw something stupid or dangerous being done and said something? Instructor, DM, or just another diver - it doesn't matter. At times negative things can happen when someone speaks up, but throughout history much worse has happened because people kept their mouths shut.
If you see a violation and know it is report it, if you're not sure- ask someone and find out if it is. If it is report it. Every agency I'm aware of would want to know if their representative is doing something wrong and have a chance to correct it before the lawsuit hits their desk.
To make a short list we have poor or no understanding of what proper buddy procedures are. With new divers this is mostly the fault of poor instruction and instructional practices. Not only did the divers buddy not stay in proper position but the instructor took no action. If the instructor tries to justify the inaction by saying he was with the actual AOW student and knew of the issues with the other diver he should not have allowed her to go on the dive. Hell no one even knew who they were buddied up with! IMO a very big deal in training.
On dive 3 the instructor, if I read this correctly, was trying to combine OW and AOW dives and was not in a position to stop the ascent of the OW student. Every good instructor on this board that I respect is always within reach of a student. Or has a certified assistant keeping a sharp eye on the divers. It also sounds as if they were being led single file. Another CF in my book. I do not do single file swims with students ever. I may not have a buddy but the students are always in position side by side. I am usually right next to them or just a little above. With individual lessons we are buddies. All skills are done within arms reach of me.
Here we have another instructor reinforcing poor procedures and even modeling them! But the worst part is I bet it's not the first time. Unless you guys were his very first students he's done this before and got away with it because no one filed a report and more importantly followed up on it. If one was filed the agency may have said bad boy, don;t do that again. And that was the end of it. Can I suggest you file a report and perhaps send a copy to someone else and note that you are copying it to them. Like maybe your lawyer. And see what kind of action gets taken then.
No one wants to see any good instructor or shop lose. But the bad ones should be driven out of business. For nearly three years now I have been doing what I can to make a difference in the way diver safety is viewed and practiced. It began with the who is responsible thread and another essay I did on Safe Diving Practices for my YMCA instructor exam. Since then I have written numerous articles on training, written a couple courses, and now my book. And it has all happened because of this kind of incident. There is no excuse for this stuff to go on other than it is allowed to. Not only by instructors, shops, and agencies but by the general diving public.
THis stuff is seen and the "it's not my place to do something" mentality takes over. Don't get involved, don't make waves, etc. And divers keep getting hurt and worse at the hands of these unscrupulous operators. I have a presentation to give in three weeks on diver responsibility. I just got a couple new slides for that out of this thread. THat is NOT a good thing but it seems to be a necessary one. I know as much as anyone and perhaps more than many how caring we are as a community, how generous, how unselfish, and how we look out for one another in many ways. So why not in this one? When was the last time you saw something stupid or dangerous being done and said something? Instructor, DM, or just another diver - it doesn't matter. At times negative things can happen when someone speaks up, but throughout history much worse has happened because people kept their mouths shut.
If you see a violation and know it is report it, if you're not sure- ask someone and find out if it is. If it is report it. Every agency I'm aware of would want to know if their representative is doing something wrong and have a chance to correct it before the lawsuit hits their desk.
Can you point me to this in the manual? that "indirect supervision" requires a certified assistant in a "direct supervision" capacity?
Somewhere near this, I suspect, if it is there:
Indirect Supervision
a. Dive site: Be present and in control of the activities,
but not necessarily directly supervising all activities.
Approve dive activities, oversee the planning,
preparation, equipment inspections, entries, exits
and debriefings and be prepared to quickly enter the
water.
TIA,
kari
Bubbletrubble
Contributor
@Karibelle: What is the "Fish ID dive" during OW training? I think I missed that part of the OW training. Perhaps you are referring to the last OW class dive when the Instructor/AI/DM typically takes the class on a short guided tour of the training site? I recall that dive. I had very little mental bandwidth to attend to things other than maintaining buoyancy control and keeping a comfortable separation distance with my buddy.
The example you offered, which involves an instructor attempting to singlehandedly supervise both an OW and an AOW student, makes me wonder why an instructor would want to short-change both students. I don't get it. Why would a husband want to "distract" the instructor from working with his wife, the OW student? Does he really need to accompany his wife on her OW training dives? His presence could potentially distract his wife from focusing on her training skills. I suppose the argument could be made that the husband might be a calming influence on his wife by providing emotional support. However, if I were an instructor, I would feel like I missed out on an opportunity to teach the wife to be a self-sufficient, independent diver. All of this presumes that this kind of simultaneous instruction is allowed by the instructional agency. DevonDiver's post regarding PADI rules seems to address this.
I'm not a scuba instructor, but I do have a fair amount of teaching experience. I've found that eliminating distractions in the classroom/lecture hall makes for a better learning experience for the students.
Sounds to me like she's referring to mixing OW and AOW students on the same dive. AOW work on fish id skills while OW do the checkout portions.
Bubbletrubble
Contributor
Ah. OK. That makes sense. Fish ID dive is part of the AOW curriculum.
I suppose I'm a little selfish. If I were the AOW student, I'd still want my instructor's undivided attention. How can the instructor be looking for interesting critters and pointing them out to me...while still attending to a newbie student diver? That's really asking too much of the instructor. Bad idea to be placing the instructor in such a situation. Even worse idea for the instructor to agree to it.
I'd be willing to bet the idea originated with the instructor, rather than students.
Bubbletrubble
Contributor
If that were the case, I'd exercise my right to choose another instructor.
I want an instructor who's primary concern is the well-being of his/her students.
Perhaps my expectations are too high.
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