I thought apprentice was a temporary rating = the first half of full cave? Not really a "level"
But I could be way off on this...
But I could be way off on this...
My First Cave Experience
- Thread starter jeepchick
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Well, yes, I'd say that doing the cavern tours without cave training was a little bit of a trust-me dive. I'd have felt significantly worse about it had I not done the wreck workshop, which introduced line handling, line following, and lights-out exits. I'm fairly certain that, had all our lights failed in the caverns, I could have found the line, or followed the ambient light out. I'm QUITE sure that, had anybody's equipment catastrophically failed, we could have managed an air-sharing exit without any difficulty at all, since we were in wide passage where you could always turn around, and always swim side-by-side.
At the risk of sounding rather elitist, I think there's a big difference between taking somebody who's passed Fundies on a cavern tour, and taking somebody straight from OW. We saw a number of those. I did hit something with my tank, but I suspect most beginning cave students do; it wasn't from lack of buoyancy control, but from inaccurately estimating the size of my underwater body. I did not kick up any silt, nor did I stray off the line.
Yeah, it's a "trust-me" dive to an extent, but at least I thought about the issues before we went.
At the risk of sounding rather elitist, I think there's a big difference between taking somebody who's passed Fundies on a cavern tour, and taking somebody straight from OW. We saw a number of those. I did hit something with my tank, but I suspect most beginning cave students do; it wasn't from lack of buoyancy control, but from inaccurately estimating the size of my underwater body. I did not kick up any silt, nor did I stray off the line.
Yeah, it's a "trust-me" dive to an extent, but at least I thought about the issues before we went.
We dive a couple of cavern dives after class and saw guides taking OW divers off the line back behind formations etc. Very destructive. These weren't necessarily instructors, just full cave guides. Its not like those divers had ever seen anything in a cave/cavern before so there was no good reason to take them off the line and widen the "trail" of diver damage. It was just to be "special"
I hit my manifold in class a couple of times, it happens. But I do think access should be limited to those who have demonstrated the ability to not damage the environment. e.g. non-silting propulsion, not needing to use ones hands, etc. Guess I'm elitist.
I hit my manifold in class a couple of times, it happens. But I do think access should be limited to those who have demonstrated the ability to not damage the environment. e.g. non-silting propulsion, not needing to use ones hands, etc. Guess I'm elitist.
My understanding is that all cavern guides in Mexico are supposed to be full cave AND OW instructors -- At least, that's what my book says. Certainly both of our guides were instructors as well.
TSandM:
I don't think that sounds elitist at all, especially from a cave conservation standpoint.
I've yet to dive Mex so maybe rjack or others can comment on the situation there, but in Florida, sadly, you can see some pretty appalling things way back in the cave. Places you have to be full/cave2 to be at.
I saw damaged formations but nothing that was obviously intentional. Like "Bubba was here" carved in the silt. Although swimming in the cavern off the line all up close to and bumping fragile formations is hardly "accidental".
TSandM:
Hmmm, I didn't realize they had to be OW instructors too. Although that's not much of a bar :shakehead
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We spent a lot more time talking about things and practicing out of the water in both cave 1 and cave 2 than actual time in the water, so I can't agree with this statement.
Jason B:
Nick's tour was in the best interest of everyone involved. We all completed the training in the allotted time and had a bit of time left over to do one last dive. He chose to take us past the light zone in accordance with the IANTD standards as an instructor doing our first intro dive. I see no reason this shouldn't happen given the circumstances and individuals involved.
He taught a tough class and made sure we were prepared for anything we might encounter as well as get us ready to continue with our training in June. I have every confidence in his ability to teach these classes as well as be responsible for the caves' conservation.
The thing that I'll always be reminded of is his insistence that he would have our certs revoked if we killed ourselves in a cave. I like taking training from someone who is a fanatic in their area of expertise, you always seem to get a better education as well as a better understanding of what can happen when things can go wrong. The death at JB the following day really drove the point home. Nick called us frantically to make sure it wasn't us when he heard the news of the fatality. He cares, and that says a lot about his character and why he takes an evangelistic approach to cave diving instruction.
Just my .02 psi from a student who was on that dive.
He taught a tough class and made sure we were prepared for anything we might encounter as well as get us ready to continue with our training in June. I have every confidence in his ability to teach these classes as well as be responsible for the caves' conservation.
The thing that I'll always be reminded of is his insistence that he would have our certs revoked if we killed ourselves in a cave. I like taking training from someone who is a fanatic in their area of expertise, you always seem to get a better education as well as a better understanding of what can happen when things can go wrong. The death at JB the following day really drove the point home. Nick called us frantically to make sure it wasn't us when he heard the news of the fatality. He cares, and that says a lot about his character and why he takes an evangelistic approach to cave diving instruction.
Just my .02 psi from a student who was on that dive.
OP
First of all, I'd just like to say that Nick took us on that dive ONLY because he thought our skills and knowledge were on the level that would allow us to safely execute that dive. Before I ever got in the water with Nick he made it clear to me that going through cavern class with him and passing cavern class was not a guarantee. If he got into the water with me and saw that I was lacking skills in a particular area, he would not allow me to take his class until I improved. That is a mark of a good instructor.
As far as your concerns about me going into an overhead environment without the proper training, no way. I love diving, and I enjoyed the cave environment, but I'm not reckless. I was a firefighter for 8 years, I know a little bit about proper training for the environments and things that you will encounter. I don't take risks for any reason. I have 3 little kids at home that need a mom at the end of the day, diving in a cave is not as important as my kids. So, if your only concern is that going on that dive would make me think that I can go into an overhead environment without an instructor, then you can quit worrying, not gonna happen.
At this point, I am working on diving my doubles, getting familiar with my new gear, and practicing my line work in the quarry. Should I be proficient with all these skills in June, I plan on heading down to FL to continue my overhead training with Intro to Cave, with Nick. In a year or so when my skills have improved even more, I may decide to go Full Cave, but I have no intention on doing any diving outside my realm of training, without an instructor. Hope this clears things up for all of you who are concerned.
As far as your concerns about me going into an overhead environment without the proper training, no way. I love diving, and I enjoyed the cave environment, but I'm not reckless. I was a firefighter for 8 years, I know a little bit about proper training for the environments and things that you will encounter. I don't take risks for any reason. I have 3 little kids at home that need a mom at the end of the day, diving in a cave is not as important as my kids. So, if your only concern is that going on that dive would make me think that I can go into an overhead environment without an instructor, then you can quit worrying, not gonna happen.
At this point, I am working on diving my doubles, getting familiar with my new gear, and practicing my line work in the quarry. Should I be proficient with all these skills in June, I plan on heading down to FL to continue my overhead training with Intro to Cave, with Nick. In a year or so when my skills have improved even more, I may decide to go Full Cave, but I have no intention on doing any diving outside my realm of training, without an instructor. Hope this clears things up for all of you who are concerned.
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