Musing about trim

[Storker]

It really sucks to be vertical in a drysuit.

Either you ascend uncontrollably feet first (or concentrate on feet to maintain depth and fins), or your neck seal fails, or you get strangled by air.

Weird that I've never experienced that. Granted, my DS experience is limited (some 50-odd DS dives, the last ten in a trilam suit, the previous ones in a neoprene DS), but you'd think I'd notice that. Especially since I've stood on my head more than once to get the picture I wanted and ascend head first more often than not.

I call BS.


And this part:

or your neck seal fails, or you get strangled by air.

is high-grade industrial strength bovine manure. If your neck seal leaks from a little air pushing on it, you didn't tuck it properly. And while a feet-first ascent can happen to a DS newbie, I've never heard of anyone experiencing anything remotely reminiscent of "strangulation by air".

--
Sent from my Android phone
Typos are a feature, not a bug

 

[TSandM]

I HAVE had the "strangulation by air" sensation -- I have, right now, a VERY tight neck seal, and the other day, I forgot to open my dry suit valve before getting in the water. The air rising to the top of the suit caused an increase of pressure on my neck which was extremely uncomfortable.

tphelps, I think my usual trim resembles your picture. The one I chose to put up was one where I was carrying a camera, which drops my arms even more than usual.

BTW, it is possible to swim around in a dry suit completely inverted. I have a picture of Uncle Pug doing it.

 

[Bob Sherwood]

Lynne,
Thanks. I love that being associated with my students. Im super proud of them and their accomplishments. If others are doing that I'm even more excited.
The wonderful thing about this sport is that there are so many differences of opinions. we learn from everyone.
Generally i try not to teach on line, but since i was mentioned here, and many of my students lurk here thought i would share some.
Yes, I train all my students with this concept. It is for good reason. I'm understanding that not everyone appreciates it, however that will never change my approach as it offers many significant benefits, and I personally dive in that position for hours. Just ask anyone who is ever in the water with me. In fact, it is UNCOMFORTABLE not to be in that position. There are of course some variations, and once control is established, people relax their shoulders (lower) to increase field of vision.
I accept that some don't care to be in trim, or that a few degrees off causing minimal drag is insignificant from a performance perspective. That said, I want to demonstrate the highest performance possible. If others strive to meet or exceed that awesome. If not, that's ok too. It's a tool!
In teaching, to get one from a-z in the shortest time possible, you need to minimize the variable to control the outcome. This position helps with that.
Often students come with less than helpful feedback on how to improve their performance. Arms up high allows me, or any individual with instant feedback about their personal position, eliminating the need for outside/questionable replies. It allows constant information of depth, time, gas, and teammates position without needing to split attention in order to gain that information.
Once one has stability and a base of control, they are able to to do almost anything they desire. Getting to that point takes time and effort. Just go to any recreational dive site and look around and no one would deny the difference between those who have it and those who don't.
I try to look back over my history of diving and remember how along the way I was better or worse, and what steps it took to improve my personal performance. There were times i was a total mess. A snap shot of any one of those time frames is just that and represents almost nothing other than a single data point in a lifelong project including millions of data points.
Having trained hundreds of people with just about every ailment possible, bad necks, shoulders, arms, missing fingers, unusable arms, even missing legs, I appreciate those challenges. All of that in pursuit of control and comfort.
Once you have it, how you use it is entirely up to the individual. Stable people can place their arms and legs and head and hands wherever they want and still demonstrate control. Unstable people.....not so much
I believe that we play the way we practice, so one should practice the way one wants to play. I respect that opinions differ. But, I try to remember that people are in different places, and the path forward from wherever they are, might be the same or different to where YOU are. Committ to helping everyone that wants to improve to improve with whatever tools available without offending those who don't. No small task
Thanks all for sharing, best, bob. 607-765-3942

Litehedded, I used to associate this with Bob Sherwood's students, but I guess it's generalized now.

 

[TSandM]

Bob, thanks for sharing that. I know very well that you always dive that way -- if I want to show someone perfect flat trim, I look for a photograph of you! However, I do think people may vary in whether it's even feasible to hold the arms in that position, let alone whether it can be maintained for long periods of time. I know I can do it when I have to; I know it would become extremely unpleasant in a short time if I had to stay that way.

 

[kr2y5]

I don't mean to go off-topic, and I might be wrong, but I thought one of the reasons that make side-mount an attractive proposal is that it seems to permit a more comfortable body position while still remaining streamlined because a slight incline in the back and face up orientation that many people prefer does not affect the position of the tanks. To me at least, trying to remain flat and yet keep face and arms up is like watching a TV mounted on the ceiling while standing... it seems possible, but not without some deliberate effort, and fair bit of suffering...

 

[Subcooled]

The undersuit used affects the amount of air in a suit.

Diving straight down in a DS may be easy or difficult depending on the cut, style of boots, gaitors etc. With my suit it is doable but not something that would make emergencies easier to manage. Staying neutral while inverted is harder than staying neutral when horizontal (valves) esp. in emergency situations.

When the water is cold I need to add a lot of air in the suit.

Anyway... just telling my worst experiences.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

After completing a Fundamentals I don't give much thought at all to trim. I figured the point was that once you got a handle on proper trim you could move on and focus on other things (dive buddy, dive plan, depth, navigation, the gas in the dry suit.......just diving).

Think about, and focus on trim until it clicks. After that you really shouldn't have to be thinking about it much any more.

Diving is a peculiar "sport" sometimes....with all of the focus on trim.


It's just a point to build upon.

As pointed out above; diving a dry suit makes being in trim preferable.
Being at an angle, or vertical isn't as nice as being flat.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I cant believe Trace hasn't chimed in yet!

Well, okay ...

Only I get to insult Bob. Anyone else - dies.:biggun:

Seriously, though, I find it MOST COMFORTABLE to be in that position all the time, but with only my light hand stretched out forward. If I'm not comfortable then I know something is wrong. I'll move both hands out to create an "artificial horizon" for quality trim in blue water, to have an "instrument panel" at the ready, or to create a "ship's bow" to allow me to better cut through the water in a current or in high flow.

Trim is a tool and once a diver learns to achieve perfect trim in open water, he or she may learn to adjust trim in overhead environments to move the fins to a better position to reduce silt or damage or to increase one's awareness of the surroundings. When the BP/W, tank and bands are properly positioned, when the drysuit and undergarments fit correctly, and when the gloves are properly installed, then stretching out in the water feels effortless. Muscles need to be developed as well. Like any other sport a little more physical conditioning goes a long way to increase performance.

Just my 2 cents. But, then again, I was trained by a maniac.

 

[BKSZEA]

This is how we maintain trim on Krypton......

 

[boulderjohn]

Trim is a tool and once a diver learns to achieve perfect trim in open water, he or she may learn to adjust trim in overhead environments to move the fins to a better position to reduce silt or damage or to increase one's awareness of the surroundings.

I did most of my early tech training in a very large and deep sink hole. It has the typical bell shape of a sink hole, with precipitous cliffs near the top that are undercut at greater depths as the diameter of the hole increases. Maintaining perfect horizontal trim was absolutely stressed at all times.

In our training, we did training dives in the shallower regions, and we did a lot of fun dives deeper. One thing we liked to do on the deeper dives was go to one of the ledges where we knew there were selenite gypsum crystals sticking out of the fine organic silt that settled there after drifting down from the dying vegetation above. We would spend a lot of time hovering in perfect horizontal trim while we looked for these crystals. The ledges sloped downward from the wall, and because of the undercut, we often had to have our heads just under the rock above us while we looked up at the area with the crystals. Imagine doing that in horizontal trim. It was painful to tilt your head upward that long. I remember a discussion my buddy and I had in which we talked about how much more pleasant that experience would be if we could just angle our bodies, if only a few degrees, so that we could look up at the sloping ledge without that unnatural, painful craning of the neck. That was not allowed, though.

When I changed agencies and worked on completing my trimix training in Florida, I ran into a similar situation. With my earlier training thoroughly ingrained into my psyche, I did my deco stops in horizontal trim. Nobody else did, including the instructors with whom I was trained. They were mostly horizontal, but they hovered at an angle that allowed them to move their heads more easily to keep track of each other, communicate, etc.

This past February I did several decompression dives in groups that included an extremely well known decompression diver and instructor. He was working with a student, and we spent a lot of time doing deco stops at the same depths. I am still psychologically possessed from my earliest training, so I was pretty much always in horizontal trim. He and his student were pretty much vertical on the ascent line the entire time. I'll bet he thought I was nuts.

When I did some cave diving in the Bahamas in back mounted tanks, my guide (Brian Kakuk) told me before the first dive that I should try NOT to be in the horizontal trim he assumed had been part of my training. He wanted me in a bit of a head up body position when we got into tight quarters because the potential for damaging the environment was primarily above me. He would rather have me scrape my knees on the rocky floor than take out the delicate stalactites with my tanks.

Yes, horizontal trim is a tool, and it is a valuable one. We should all have it mastered for when it is needed. On the other hand, I think some people take it to the level of a religious tenet that must be followed even when logic would dictate a different approach. I still feel guilt when I go out of horizontal, but I am learning to overcome it.