Multi Level Dive Logging?

[TMHeimer]

Ok, it is all nice but lets consider a local NC dive. We are diving on the hyde. An intact ship. It is 80 ft to the sand, 85 on the sand next to the ship in the washout, 60 on the deck but say 50 along the top part of the deck. We do not know the viz at the start. Turns out there is a haze layer in the bottom 10 ft. We may will spend the whole dive on the top deck. Or more typically we start on the sand. Some dives we come up a level pretty soon. Others there is a lot of life down there, we play with flounder, and pick up a lot of teeth. As we come along the mid deck, we are doing good on air. You are into a bit of fish ID, so we drop down to the sand in the hold to check out the spotted gobies. We are back to 80ft. Coming up we again have some options. Point is there is no way to say ahead of time I will spend x minutes at y and then x2 minutes at y2, etc. Where we go will be determined by what shows up, the water conditions, and how we are doing on air. I dive with lots of instabuddies but if somebody comes along with a rigid multilevel dive plan or relying on tables then I will politely decline to dive with them.

I keep a reaonably close monitor on the air of mine and dive buddies. If we have the air I will take a picture of the gold bars. If not, then we will do it on dive 2 or not at all.

Another example of eRDPml uselessness. And, this is a wreck you are familiar with and can actually have a rough plan for.

 

[Centrals]

I haven't used The Wheel since picked up a dive computer in 1997.
After planning a multi-level dive, I cannot remember if The Wheel will indicate a new Pressure Group or not.

 

[Steve_C]

To eliminate that situation I suppose there could be a table in increments of 1 foot.

There is an electronic one called a dive computer.

 

[Marie13]

If i understand the OP correctly, the question was not about planning/conducting the dives but about LOGGING the dives afterward, since they want to have all fields filled in and that pesky "End Pressure Group" box is like a missing tooth in a supermodel's smile.

As many have pointed out, EPG is totally irrelevant UNLESS the dive has been planned and conducted on tables. Even then, it will reflect what the tables say and not an actual indication of the gas loading accumulated during the dive. Using average depth to calculate an EPG after the dive should give a more accurate indication if it was a genuine multilevel dive.

I, for one, don't bother with the EPG even when I had a paper log. My suggestion would be to download Subsurface (free) and use that to log your dives. It won't ask you for EPG so no blank spaces, it will allow you to search your dives by depth (useful for later courses), equipment (nice for remembering weighting for suits etc) and if you later get the ability to download dives it will be a LOT simpler to populate the software. You can print out a paper log if you ever need one for IDC or such, but honestly next to nobody will ever care, like nobody cares about stamps.

The only times I have needed to show a log for a course, I emailed a PDF and we were good to go. Even when I had a (bunch) of paper logs, they only wanted to see the total dive number.

If you REALLY want to keep that paper logbook going, then just write "PDC" in the EPG box and move on, everyone who cares will know what that means.

The OP didn’t get a download cable with his computer since it was too expensive.

All the table stuff is amusing to me. I’m surprised they’re seemingly still taught with the thought people will actually use them.

 

[Neilwood]

If i understand the OP correctly, the question was not about planning/conducting the dives but about LOGGING the dives afterward, since they want to have all fields filled in and that pesky "End Pressure Group" box is like a missing tooth in a supermodel's smile.

As many have pointed out, EPG is totally irrelevant UNLESS the dive has been planned and conducted on tables. Even then, it will reflect what the tables say and not an actual indication of the gas loading accumulated during the dive. Using average depth to calculate an EPG after the dive should give a more accurate indication if it was a genuine multilevel dive.

I, for one, don't bother with the EPG even when I had a paper log. My suggestion would be to download Subsurface (free) and use that to log your dives. It won't ask you for EPG so no blank spaces, it will allow you to search your dives by depth (useful for later courses), equipment (nice for remembering weighting for suits etc) and if you later get the ability to download dives it will be a LOT simpler to populate the software. You can print out a paper log if you ever need one for IDC or such, but honestly next to nobody will ever care, like nobody cares about stamps.

The only times I have needed to show a log for a course, I emailed a PDF and we were good to go. Even when I had a (bunch) of paper logs, they only wanted to see the total dive number.

If you REALLY want to keep that paper logbook going, then just write "PDC" in the EPG box and move on, everyone who cares will know what that means.

Agree with all of that.

Dive logs have a few purposes:
1) Working out theoretical pressure groups. Theoretical because unless you dive EXACTLY according to the plan, including perfect ascent rates, your PG will be off (might only be slightly but could be way off).
2) record of dive for equipment, buddy, air consumption
3) Proof of dive count for further courses

I hate tables - for a lot of real world diving they are next to useless. Take a 60 ft dive - you can dive for 55 minutes (NDL) whereas at 61ft you are limited to 40 minutes (you are in the next depth category so MUST use the reduced NDL figure even if you are only there for a minute. It also assumes a vertical descent and ascent - not the case with a lot of shore dives with sloping bottoms where I could spend 10 minutes going out and another 10 coming back with my actual average depth approx half that of the deepest part and therefore absorbing a hell of a lot less gas.

Never ever try to dive tables and DC (particularly on 2,3 or 4 dive days) - you will just end up frustrated as your tables will have you bent like a pretzel whereas your DC might give you a ton of NDL remaining.

Personally I kept my paper log going for about 10 dives. By that time I had a DC (bought before dive 5) and download cable so ended up using Subsurface which gives me the same info as my dive log but in a lot more detail (ascent/descent rates at particular sections of the dive for example). I bought the cable as it made the logging so much more straightforward and gave me so much more information.

 

[JackD342]

The OP didn’t get a download cable with his computer since it was too expensive.

All the table stuff is amusing to me. I’m surprised they’re seemingly still taught with the thought people will actually use them.

The default in PADI OW is to assume computer only, with dive planner use optional. I encourage (but don’t force) students to learn them anyway to be well grounded in what their computer is doing, even if they never use the planner again.

And let’s face it, there are a lot of certified divers just diving the profiles the resort boat crew tells them to dive, with no thought given to computers or pressure groups.

 

[Todd Whitworth]

You got it! The original post was about logging dives, and I'm a bit of a paperwork nerd so I don't like leaving boxes unfilled. I'm also trying to maintain good and safe habits. I've seen far too many people with sloppy habits, (not unique to scuba) in various activities I enjoy.
Thank you very much for the feedback and suggestions.

Cheers,

Todd

If i understand the OP correctly, the question was not about planning/conducting the dives but about LOGGING the dives afterward, since they want to have all fields filled in and that pesky "End Pressure Group" box is like a missing tooth in a supermodel's smile.

As many have pointed out, EPG is totally irrelevant UNLESS the dive has been planned and conducted on tables. Even then, it will reflect what the tables say and not an actual indication of the gas loading accumulated during the dive. Using average depth to calculate an EPG after the dive should give a more accurate indication if it was a genuine multilevel dive.

I, for one, don't bother with the EPG even when I had a paper log. My suggestion would be to download Subsurface (free) and use that to log your dives. It won't ask you for EPG so no blank spaces, it will allow you to search your dives by depth (useful for later courses), equipment (nice for remembering weighting for suits etc) and if you later get the ability to download dives it will be a LOT simpler to populate the software. You can print out a paper log if you ever need one for IDC or such, but honestly next to nobody will ever care, like nobody cares about stamps.

The only times I have needed to show a log for a course, I emailed a PDF and we were good to go. Even when I had a (bunch) of paper logs, they only wanted to see the total dive number.

If you REALLY want to keep that paper logbook going, then just write "PDC" in the EPG box and move on, everyone who cares will know what that means.

 

[Storker]

All the table stuff is amusing to me. I’m surprised they’re seemingly still taught with the thought people will actually use them.

While everyone and their grandmother - with a few exceptions - use a computer these days, learning the tables gives - IMNSHO - a feeling for the relationship between depth and no-stop times which the solitary use of a computer in planning mode struggles to give as quickly. That feeling may come in handy for planning dives, or for doing a reality check on what your computer tells you. I happen to think that that is good, even if you don't NEED it to jump into the water with a DM holding your hand, telling you what to do and when to do it.

 

[stuartv]

While everyone and their grandmother - with a few exceptions - use a computer these days, learning the tables gives - IMNSHO - a feeling for the relationship between depth and no-stop times which the solitary use of a computer in planning mode struggles to give as quickly. That feeling may come in handy for planning dives, or for doing a reality check on what your computer tells you. I happen to think that that is good, even if you don't NEED it to jump into the water with a DM holding your hand, telling you what to do and when to do it.

I agree. BUT, I think that relationship and that feeling you are talking about is something that only some people get by learning tables. I think some people get so bogged down in learning the mechanics of the process that they never see the forest for the trees. They may be able to do a 3-dive plan for a day, using nothing but tables, and do it perfectly. Yet never actually grasp the real-world, useful significance of the steps, the PGs, the RNT values, etc..

I think that relationship and that feeling you are talking about is a good thing for every diver to learn, but I also think that there are better and simpler ways to teach that, without using tables.

(we're way off topic, but the original seems to have somewhat run its course...)

 

[stuartv]

I actually prefer not to teach tables at all. As with any other scuba skill, it gets stale when not used. And I have seen too many instances of people trying to use tables, after probably years of diving and not using tables at all, where they were using them wrong (e.g. basing table lookups on average depth instead of max depth, just as one example). My concern is people using them wrong and hurting themselves, and it being a result of being taught something they never use but then thinking that they still "have that skill".