Mounting tanks upside down

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Originally posted by Laurence Stein DDS
Mounting the first stage nearly
three feet below the second stage would create approximately a 10% increase in the work of breathing on shallow dives (33 ft).
>>>snip<<<
Remember your first scuba lessons. It was usually pointed out that the first and second stages of you reg were at approximately the SAME level.
Well Larry, I am cerrtainly no advocate for inversion but....

Your reasoning here is not valid (unless you spend all your time vertical in the water)....

In the correct horizontal position the butt mounted first stage is at the same level as the top mounted one.
 
Originally posted by Laurence Stein DDS
At your dive shop, they set the intermediate pressure for optimum performance. This is done in air. The air pressure difference is so slight between the top and the bottom of an inverted reglator it would be unnoticable on the surface. Not so in the water. We have all expericed the phenomenon that occurs when we roll onto our backs. It becomes harder to breathe. Mounting the first stage nearly
three feet below the second stage would create approximately a 10% increase in the work of breathing on shallow dives (33 ft).
Nope, water pressure amounts to about 0.5 psi per foot, this means a three-foot delta would amount to an insignificant 1.5 psi difference in IP from "normal."

Since IP is typically set with a 5-10 psi "slop" 1.5 is noise.

Not only that, but if you were in a vertical position this would cause the IP to be a little higher than it's supposed to be and for a normal downstream 2nd stage that'd make it breathe easier. If the 1.5 was significant, which it isn't.

The reason for the reg breathing harder when inverted is not because of any first stage/IP effect.

Roak
 
I beg to differ. What you call noise is compensated at the second stage adjustment and we do not live in this horizontal world we have imagined. The cracking pressure on your reg is measured in inches of pressure and in fact it is just a fraction of an inch between cracking and flow. The 0.5 psi/ft is nearly an order of 10 greater than when compared to a fraction of an inch cracking pressure and assuming a tank is about 2 and 1/2 feet long, there is nearly 3 pounds of difference in the horizontal position. This is no longer "noise".

Swimming in a horizontal position this might not be noticeable but descending and ascending (and possibly tired) on a line, lobstering, checking holes--for those who spearfish--I can assure you that it does matter and it does wear you out.

I suppose you have never experienced the increased inhalation effort while lying on your back? It IS caused by the relative difference in the first and second stages horizontal position and it IS caused by a relatively minor difference of about 6 inches.
 
Unless you are using a double hose regulator there will be no difference in ease of breathing. You get ambient pressure at the second stage, not the first. The intermediate pressure is too great to breath directly and is not a factor in ease of breathing.
 
The RN used to use top down tanks. They had big handled like rubberized garden faucets. They were uesd in two tank configurations with a twinning yoke but individual shut offs. They dived one tank down to near empty, opened the other and equalized the pressure and shut it off again. They did this three or four times then surfaced. This was in the days before pressure gages and reliable reserve (J) valves. Biggest problem was when the second tank didn't shut off, then the second equalization came as rather a supprise since there wasn't any gas available.
 
Here's a shock, the RN still uses the inverted tank configuration. Of course, it's too simple and efficient to be commercially viable.
 
Originally posted by Laurence Stein DDS
I beg to differ. What you call noise is compensated at the second stage adjustment and we do not live in this horizontal world we have imagined. The cracking pressure on your reg is measured in inches of pressure and in fact it is just a fraction of an inch between cracking and flow. The 0.5 psi/ft is nearly an order of 10 greater than when compared to a fraction of an inch cracking pressure and assuming a tank is about 2 and 1/2 feet long, there is nearly 3 pounds of difference in the horizontal position. This is no longer "noise".

Swimming in a horizontal position this might not be noticeable but descending and ascending (and possibly tired) on a line, lobstering, checking holes--for those who spearfish--I can assure you that it does matter and it does wear you out.
At least my Monday is starting off on an entertaining note...

How many mistakes, let me count the ways...

1) Your math is wrong, 2 1/2 half feet would be 1.25PSI, I’ll even round up to 1.5PSI, which still isn't close to 3PSI.

2) Directly comparing cracking pressure and IP pressure is like comparing apples to oranges. If the valve orifice that the gas moved through in the 2nd stage was 1 square inch in area, you might have a point, but it's a tiny fraction of an inch by design, lessening the mechanical force required to keep it closed. In addition the valve opening is assisted [typically] by a fulcrum on the lever that's against the diaphragm which allows those “inches of water” to overcome the either-side-of-the-valve delta.

3) As I stated in my first reply, if the 1st stage is lower than your second by (we'll use your number) 6 feet/3PSI it'll deliver 3PSI MORE IP to the 2nd stage, in theory making breathing EASIER assuming the typical downstream 2nd stage valve.

4) This also goes for your “on your back” example. Great theory but you got it backwards. On your back the IP delivered to your 2nd is GREATER not less so it should make your breathing easier, not harder.

5) You’ve confusing how a snorkel works versus how a second stage works. Ignoring for the moment that your reasoning is backwards, (points 3 & 4) you would be correct for a snorkel. But again, the 1st and 2nd stage combination of regulators isn’t a snorkel.

6) Using your 3PSI (6 foot number) again, if you were trying to overcome a 6 foot deficit of pressure you bet it’d wear you out -- in one breath specifically since NO ONE can pull air through a 6 foot snorkel from the surface!

7) Lastly a qualitative argument -- if you were right, the hookah systems we use at the Aquarium wouldn’t work. For the small exhibits we leave our cylinder topside on the path, hook a 1st stage up to it that has a very long hose to our 2nd stage and we go to the bottom of the exhibit which is about 6-8 feet. And -- sorry, you’ll have to take my word for it -- we can breathe just fine.

Important career tip: Stick to dentistry.

However, I have this nagging suspicion from your authoritative statement “Remember your first scuba lessons.” In your first post that you’re a SCUBA instructor. Please, please tell me you’re not.
Originally posted by Laurence Stein DDS
I suppose you have never experienced the increased inhalation effort while lying on your back? It IS caused by the relative difference in the first and second stages horizontal position and it IS caused by a relatively minor difference of about 6 inches.
Yes, I've experienced the harder breathing. No, it's NOT caused by the pressure differential between the 1st and 2nd stage (again, you've got it backwards). Time for you to stop listening to the dive shop monkeys and reason this through for yourself. I assume you had to take some physics along the way to becoming a dentist. Take a deep breath, forget what the local shop and/or mainstream instruction has told/taught you and figure this one out for yourself. It’s really quite simple once you get past the diveshop/training voodoo stories.

Roak
 
Originally posted by Laurence Stein DDS
I beg to differ.
Hi Larry,
No need to beg....

But you really should send your posts out to a screener first to remove all the mistakes before you release them to the board....

I am sure Roaky would be willing to look them over for you....
 
Talk about being thrown to the wolves. I'm not touching this with a 10 foot (5PSI :jester: ) pole!
Roak and Uncle Pug are right on as usual(excluding DIR discussions:boom: )

Cheers
 
Originally posted by Divesherpa
Talk about being thrown to the wolves. I'm not touching this with a 10 foot (5PSI :jester: ) pole!
Roak and Uncle Pug are right on as usual(excluding DIR discussions:boom: )
Cheers
Yeah... it does seem kinda unfair tag teaming such an easy one doesn't it...

Anyway... Sherp we do appreciate you being a DIR foil... somebody's gotta get in the ring with us once in awhile and make it look like a struggle :wink:
 

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