"Mount Everest" of scuba diving

[Superlyte27]

Look up the USS Spadefish. I'm with two men right now as I type this who lived on that boat for quite some time. It was faster and went deeper. By alot.

I genuinely wish I could give you the dirt, but bear this in mind. In the early 1900's a steam powered submarine could do 24 knots. Skip forward 95 years, calculate in titanium hulls, nuclear reactors, perfected prop designs (try 8 blades 40' in diameter) and the most efficient shape in the water (a tear drop). You really think it only does 40 knots?

Edit* Look up the Spadefish 668. The first ones were diesel.

 

[coglesby]

Look up the USS Spadefish. I'm with two men right now as I type this who lived on that boat for quite some time. It was faster and went deeper. By alot.

I genuinely wish I could give you the dirt, but bear this in mind. In the early 1900's a steam powered submarine could do 24 knots. Skip forward 95 years, calculate in titanium hulls, nuclear reactors, perfected prop designs (try 8 blades 40' in diameter) and the most efficient shape in the water (a tear drop). You really think it only does 40 knots?

Edit* Look up the Spadefish 668. The first ones were diesel.

I have no idea how fast today's subs go. I never even brought up speed. You introduced the speed comment while ROFL.

I will say, 40 knots, is FAST on or in the water - roughly 46mph. LA Class fast-attack subs built from the 1970's to late 1990's are said to have a top speed of 25-30 knots. I'm of the opinion 40 knots is at the high-end of speed for subs - maybe not the ceiling, but the high-end. But, I defer all speed knowledge to those of you, who have the "dirt" and the contacts.

 

[DCBC]

I believe that the fastest sub ever produced was the Soviet Papa Class. There were only 7 or 8 made (a predecessor of the Alfa class Sub) which had a top speed of about 45 knots. You can only do so much with hydrodynamics.

 

[Superlyte27]

Uh huh...

 

[Gilldiver]

The Soviets built one or two titanium hulled subs which were very fast and very deep diving. They were also ruinously expensive and were not worth it. First, at high speed, no matter how well engineered a sub, it gets noisy. The Papa’s were said to be so noisy that they could be tracked at all times from a very far distance.

The other fact is that the Brits and US figured that if the Soviets spent all their funds on fast and deep diving subs, they would spend a small amount of money on very fast and deep diving torpedoes. It’s just cheaper to build a lot of better torpedoes then one faster/deeper diving nuclear sub.

 

[Guy Alcala]

I like all of those parameters. With regard to penetration diving, mine has been limited compared to most. However, I'm very fascinated and intrigued with wrecks and read about them when I can. In fact, the more history/mystery of a wreck, the better. I am in agreement with your stance on not desecrating a wreck involving notable loss of life. Lots of books on WWII naval battles (as well as other tragedies at sea) have definitely solidified my stance on this. Working on a trip to Chuuk next year and hope it all comes together.

I'm not into removing artifacts regardless of whether there was loss of life. In the case of military wrecks, they remain the property of the owning government unless sold, and as military graves AIUI disturbing anything is illegal. Certainly you'd be in big trouble if you did so in a place like Chuuk, or PoW/Repulse. Leave things in place and undisturbed for the next person is my attitude.

A little more on topic, I read a book a few years ago by a USN hardhat diver who was one of the people involved in salvaging the ships sunk at Pearl Harbor. In fact, he and several other divers were flown out from the West Coast the evening of Dec. 7th to Pearl. After the first week or so, where they were mainly busy trying to find if there was anybody trapped inside compartments who they could rescue, they were assigned to survey the various ships to see their condition and if possible, patch them so they could be raised. There was a division of effort; Civilian divers were responsible for outside work, and navy divers did the inside stuff. He claimed he was the first diver inside the Arizona after she was sunk, and it's pretty spooky, as the divers were constantly being bumped into by bodies (uniformly headless, IIRR. Apparently crabs and fish tend to start there, and concussion injuries ) in the dark. they didn't use lights because all the oil and other crap int he water just reflected it back into their faceplates, blinding them, so they worked by feel, being guided by compartment plans.

He also did repair work on ships damaged in the naval battles around Guadalcanal at Tulagi in the Solomons, and was on a tug that was sunk by the Japanese during one of their attacks. For anyone who's interested the title is "Descent into Darkness - Pearl Harbor 1941: A Navy Diver's Memoir," by Edward C. Raymer, 1996.

Guy

 

[coglesby]

I'm not into removing artifacts regardless of whether there was loss of life. In the case of military wrecks, they remain the property of the owning government unless sold, and as military graves AIUI disturbing anything is illegal. Certainly you'd be in big trouble if you did so in a place like Chuuk, or PoW/Repulse. Leave things in place and undisturbed for the next person is my attitude.

Agreed

A little more on topic, I read a book a few years ago by a USN hardhat diver who was one of the people involved in salvaging the ships sunk at Pearl Harbor. In fact, he and several other divers were flown out from the West Coast the evening of Dec. 7th to Pearl. After the first week or so, where they were mainly busy trying to find if there was anybody trapped inside compartments who they could rescue, they were assigned to survey the various ships to see their condition and if possible, patch them so they could be raised. There was a division of effort; Civilian divers were responsible for outside work, and navy divers did the inside stuff. He claimed he was the first diver inside the Arizona after she was sunk, and it's pretty spooky, as the divers were constantly being bumped into by bodies (uniformly headless, IIRR. Apparently crabs and fish tend to start there, and concussion injuries ) in the dark. they didn't use lights because all the oil and other crap int he water just reflected it back into their faceplates, blinding them, so they worked by feel, being guided by compartment plans.

He also did repair work on ships damaged in the naval battles around Guadalcanal at Tulagi in the Solomons, and was on a tug that was sunk by the Japanese during one of their attacks. For anyone who's interested the title is "Descent into Darkness - Pearl Harbor 1941: A Navy Diver's Memoir," by Edward C. Raymer, 1996.

Guy

Thanks for the book info.

 

[Superlyte27]

The Soviets built one or two titanium hulled subs which were very fast and very deep diving. They were also ruinously expensive and were not worth it. First, at high speed, no matter how well engineered a sub, it gets noisy. The Papa’s were said to be so noisy that they could be tracked at all times from a very far distance.

The other fact is that the Brits and US figured that if the Soviets spent all their funds on fast and deep diving subs, they would spend a small amount of money on very fast and deep diving torpedoes. It’s just cheaper to build a lot of better torpedoes then one faster/deeper diving nuclear sub.

Once upon a time, in a period of crisis, our country dispatched a sub from our coast to half way around the world. The trip took half the time it should have. We knew when it left and when it arrived and we knew the distance. The math was easy. This subject has always irritated me. So many people have believed the "in excess of 25knots and 500feet" answer for so long or as the case is now, "700m and 45knots". I'll keep the secret, dumb as I believe it is.

 

[Kevrumbo]

It always used to be said that the Andrea Doria was the "Mount Everest" of scuba diving (to the extent that Google even suggests it as a term: Google mount+everest+scuba+diving).

However, what used to be tremendously challenging dive during the days before trimix, rebreathers and sophisticated dive computers has lost some of its lustre. It must be seriously doubtful that skilled technical divers would consider the wreck the apex of challenging dives any more.

So if we were going to relocate to a new "Mount Everest", and assuming we want to stick with deep wrecks, where would we put it? If the parameters are (i) it has to be a dive that only very skilled and experienced divers could reasonably contemplate, and (ii) it has to be somewhere with the infrastructure to dive it, which wreck would you nominate?

I was reading about the Transylvania in the latest edition of Wreck Diving, and I thought that would make an excellent candidate. At 450 feet deep, and located off the northern coast of Ireland, it strikes me as a pretty worthy successor. The Brittanic might be another, although I think access to the wreck is restricted?

Getting back on topic:

Kevin Denlay on USS Atlanta in Iron Bottom Sound, Guadalcanal 30 Nov 1995:

We used a trimix breathing mixture consisting of 11% oxygen, 54% helium, balance nitrogen (11%O2, 54%He, 35%N2) and at a depth of 110msw/360fsw (with an Equivalent Air Depth of 43msw/140fsw and a PPO2 of 1.32ATA ) placed a plaque and three flags belonging to the Solomon Islands, the USA and Australia, in honour of the heroes that died that tragic night. Ours were the first living hands to have touched this sleeping giant, lying in 120msw/400fsw since that fateful day in '42.

IANTD Nitrox Diver Scuba Diving Magazine ean eanx trimix rebreather cave wreck decompression

 

[Guy Alcala]

Getting back on topic:

Kevin Denlay on USS Atlanta in Iron Bottom Sound, Guadalcanal 30 Nov 1995:


IANTD Nitrox Diver Scuba Diving Magazine ean eanx trimix rebreather cave wreck decompression

USS Seminole, mentioned in the article above, was the fleet tug that Edward Raymer was on when she was sunk. He also did repair work on the Portland in Tulagi harbor, and IIRR was initially sent to help the Atlanta but that was later changed.

Guy