More L.A. County fatality stats (Casino Point & others)

[drbill]

I'd love to. Just send me the figures :blinking:

Ha, the only figures I'm really concerned with have to do with anatomy!

 

[promocop]

So Ken being that you are the go to guy for scuba deaths. Sad but true. Can't find any info on the two CA deaths ths weekend. Pt Lobos and the cameraman off Catalina. Can you please enlighten us! Thankst

 

[muzikbiz22]

So Ken being that you are the go to guy for scuba deaths. Sad but true. Can't find any info on the two CA deaths ths weekend. Pt Lobos and the cameraman off Catalina. Can you please enlighten us! Thankst

Info on the Catalina incident, can be found here Artie Williams III, was a dear friend, and will be missed by a lot of people.

 

[promocop]

I knew him as well. Very sad. Thamks

---------- Post Merged at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:41 PM ----------

That's what I read. As we know divers need to know how/why. Not to be ghoulish but to find answers. Anything else on this tradegy?

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Pt. Lobos guy sounds like it was an OOA situation but he made it to the surface and then sank back down (never ditched his weightbelt). Recovered two hours later.

Here's what I had to say in TWARS (This Week at Reef Seekers) about Rebecca Weiss and Artie Williams:

MISSING FREEDIVER FOUND - You've probably read over the last week about the woman (Rebecca Weiss) who went freediving (snorkeling) off of Terranea (aka old Marineland) and never returned home. Her car and dive bag were found at the site but no sign of her, in or out of the water. There's been an intensive search going on and L.A. County Sheriffs divers had already scoured the area with no success. Saturday, a group of recreational divers (members of our extended Reef Seekers family) were doing a dive, came upon Rebecca's body underwater, and brought her to the surface. They say she was in about 35 feet of water, near the edge of a kelp bed, no signs of entanglement, and was lying peacefully on the bottom as if she was asleep. Her weightbelt was still in place and that was what was keeping her submerged. So while we applaud the efforts of the rescuers to give the family (who were on the beach at the time) closure, it also brings up the point of how crucial it can be, perhaps literally the difference between life and death, to ditch your weightbelt if you get in trouble. You can certainly make the argument that with freediving, if she was hyperventilating excessively and suffered from a shallow-water blackout, there may not have been time or awareness of a problem to ditch the belt. But the fact remains that as soon as the rescuers released the belt, she started to rise. And this is a point we try to make anytime we can: Without a weightbelt, you WILL eventually come to the surface which means we have a much better chance to performing a successful rescue. So, again, if you think things are going south, get rid of the weightbelt. Much better to ditch it at a time when you didn't have to than to keep it on when you shouldn't and pay the ultimate price.

ANOTHER FATALITY THIS WEEKEND - I'm also saddened to report a scuba fatality this weekend and also someone from the Reef Seekers extended family. Artie Williams, who was also a camerguy for KABC (I first met him when I was doing the weather for KABC-TV in 1982-83), died Saturday morning during the first dive of the day at Isthmus Reef. Lovely man, very friendly and giving, and he will be missed by those who knew him. It seems that at the end of the dive, Artie and his buddy surfaced behind the boat and there was a fairly strong current. While they were trying to make their way back to the boat, Artie passed out. One of the DMs on the boat was a Long Beach fireman ands got to Artie fairly quickly and apparently Baywatch also came out quickly because the boat was so close to the Isthmus Baywatch dock. Unfortunately, all these efforts were to no avail. An autopsy will be done by the L.A. County Coroner and my pure speculation/guess from what I know so far is that this will have some sort of a medical issue as a main or direct cause of death. And it re-emphasizes how important it is, especially as you get older (the day after he died would have been Artie's 60th birthday) to get some sort of a regular (every 2-3 years) medical checkup that clears you for diving which means an emphasis on the condition of the heart and lungs. But Artie's death, assuming the strong current plays into this, also brings up another point: Was this something that he perhaps felt coming on by being tired or winded, but decided to soldier on rather than stop and wait for help or be "rescued"? There's no way of knowing for sure. But it's something to think about. Even today when I was playing golf in the heat, I started to feel a little light-headed after a couple of holes. I was thinking it was just the beginning of dehydration but with Artie's death fresh in my mind, I was also wondering if this was the first sign of a larger problem, one I'd avoid if I stopped playing but one that could get worse if continued in the heat. Fortunately, as I drank some fluids, all returned to normal fairly quickly. But it was in the back of my mind that I might need to quit because of the heat to avoid a larger problem. We can always learn something from a diving death. It's always very sad but if something good can come out of it in the long run, that person's passing can have some positive result. Artie will be missed but not forgotten, on a number of levels.

- Ken

 

[Thalassamania]

Ken -- thank you for the stats. I really wonder if any significant additional training would signficantly effect the fatality rate. (Thal -- before you chime in, I'm referring to reasonably acceptable training within a recreational scheme.)

Question -- any stats on the fatality rate of LA County graduates? Since the LA County program is often held up as the (a?) "gold standard" has there been any longitudinal study of:

a. How many graduates continue to dive?

b. Of those who dive, their dive history (i.e., tropical vacation, "active", etc.)?

c. Accident rates for all.

Ken, of the fatalities, any common thread regarding training? In particular, how long had it been since they'd had a class/training prior to their incident?

Questions, questions, always questions.

Peter, I don't see why 100 hrs with 12 open water dives is not "reasonably acceptable training within a recreational scheme" when it guarantees a life time of zero risk diving, after all ... isn't training "life support?" Why would anyone anyone spend over a thousand dollars on a regulator and then scrimp on real "life support?"

First off, thanks Ken, these are great stats !!!

Second, Peter Guy poses a bit of a "backhanded" question, (and I'm not tryng to start a huge debate here, no malicious intent). As stringent as the LA County program may be, (or not be), ANYTHING can happen to ANYONE at ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, regardless of certification/training. Accidents, bad decisions, bad luck and stupidity happen to ALL OF US, be it a scuba diver, (PADI, NAUI or otherwise), Harvard graduate or hair stylist. Plus I think it would be a bit of a reach in breaking down fatalities by Certification Agency/Education, I could be wrong here. In the end, yes, ANY information is helpful to us all, and I'm certain willing to listen & learn, and be that much better of a diver, as well.

Actually what you are saying is patently false. No one who went thorough a Scripps Model research diver course ever became a diving fatality. For that matter, as best I can remember for the early 1970s through mid 1990s, the same could be said for LA County training (I guess making that claim here is about as good a way of fact checking it as I can think of).

 

[promocop]

Thanks Ken. always, a very insightful and articulate answer. Thanks

 

[boulderjohn]

But Artie's death, assuming the strong current plays into this, also brings up another point: Was this something that he perhaps felt coming on by being tired or winded, but decided to soldier on rather than stop and wait for help or be "rescued"? There's no way of knowing for sure. But it's something to think about. Even today when I was playing golf in the heat, I started to feel a little light-headed after a couple of holes. I was thinking it was just the beginning of dehydration but with Artie's death fresh in my mind, I was also wondering if this was the first sign of a larger problem, one I'd avoid if I stopped playing but one that could get worse if continued in the heat. Fortunately, as I drank some fluids, all returned to normal fairly quickly. But it was in the back of my mind that I might need to quit because of the heat to avoid a larger problem.

I think this is a common problem with a lot of people, including me. We have led lives that include enough physical stress and adventure to know that sometimes we get tired, and sometimes our muscles hurt. We have learned to push through these experiences, because 99% of the time we can, and we are better for it. The first difficulty is knowing when it is not one of those 99% of the cases. The second difficulty is recognizing that as we age, that 99% figure starts to drop rapidly.

One day I could feel that I had a cut on my head, but I couldn't see it because it was hidden by the little hair that is still there. I wondered how I could have gotten that cut, and I asked my wife to describe it. She couldn't find it. Later in the day, I was walking across a parking lot and a very light breeze blew my hair. It hurt very slightly. It took all my logic to overcome my natural instincts and go to the doctor, saying that I know it sounds crazy to come in because I feel a mild discomfort on my head, but I don't think my hair should hurt when a light breeze blows it. Because I made that unusual (for me) decision, I was able to get on antivirals immediately, catch the shingles attack at its earliest stages, and have only a very mild case.

As we age, we have to realize that sometimes those little aches and pains and that fatigue just might be something to worry about, but it is oh so hard to do.

 

[billt4sf]

So, again, if you think things are going south, get rid of the weightbelt. Much better to ditch it at a time when you didn't have to than to keep it on when you shouldn't and pay the ultimate price.

And it re-emphasizes how important it is, especially as you get older (the day after he died would have been Artie's 60th birthday) to get some sort of a regular (every 2-3 years) medical checkup that clears you for diving which means an emphasis on the condition of the heart and lungs. But Artie's death, assuming the strong current plays into this, also brings up another point: Was this something that he perhaps felt coming on by being tired or winded, but decided to soldier on rather than stop and wait for help or be "rescued"? There's no way of knowing for sure. But it's something to think about.

- Ken

Thanks, Ken, for your thoughtful comments. I know neither of these folks but these are valuable lessons, and thank you for pointing them out.

- Bill

 

[Adino]

My take from this is that two numbers are significant:

- 4.5 deaths/year average
- Most deaths recently; 2009, 2010 and 2011.

The latter MAY say something about the dumbing down of training in recent years. Too bad that he was not able to get data on amount of experience/recent dives of the deceased.

I don't know the area, but 25% at one spot seems rather high unless that's one of the few places to dive in LA County.

Just my 2 psi.

Casino point is not one of the few, but, it is probably the most heavily dived site in the county. This site is also heavily used for training purposes. Furthermore, because this site is so easy, some people tend to become lacksadaisical about diving here.

Addicted to air