Missing Diver - Grand Cayman Sept 21, 2009

[-hh]

..According to a website that gets some of the facts right sometimes, Red Sail has also had two fatalities this year...

I've been casually tracking diver deaths on Cayman for years - with a very broad brush, I'd say that there's roughly "ten to a dozen" watersports deaths per year in the Caymans (Grand+Little+Brac).

The recent (anecdotal) pattern has tended to be fewer young daredevils, but of higher age (above 50), such that we could suspect some health related issues contributing. There has also been a sprinkle of "what was they thinking?" events that can only be characterized as astoundingly high risk, such as an utter non-swimmer out 'alone' who loses their snorkeling vest & quietly drowns.

I've not considered or looked for non-fatal accidents, which would naturally be more frequent. However, based on casual on-site personal observations of how many ambulances I've seen showing up for diveboats, I'd SWAG this number at at least ~50/year (ie, easily one per week), if not substantially higher (maybe 150/year?).

DD doesn't do a great job of running the dives. OTOH, I don't think they should "run dives" at all. The DM should describe the site, make sure everybody has a real buddy and a buoy, then tell them to "be back on the boat with their buddy before they run out of air", wish them a good dive and tell them "the pool is open".

While that's not necessarily a bad idea, to not have a DM in the water on a wall dive is probably still contrary to Cayman's Watersports Operator Association policies. This association used to publish all their rules openly on the web, but they since become less open to disclosure...which is why some of us keep our own old copy around, which said:

12. The required in-water Divemaster/Customer is 1 to 10 for wall boat diving and as conditions dictate for shallow dives. ​

FWIW, I'd not be surprised if this 1:10 ratio has long since been removed from their policies.

I was diving off 7 mile beach on the day in question while on cruise...My only input would be I didn't like that dive of the day...while it was an excellent dive site I did not feel safe following the "group's plan." After a few minutes under water I wanted to keep a safe distance from the "vacation divers."...

Understandable, although this sounds more like a negative critque of the job that the Certifying Agencies are doing in setting & upholding minimum training standards.

The first dive along the wall ( I believe they stated a 7000fsw drop) was almost a check dive with the group and the DM's because the second dive was shallower 52' at a wreck and reef where the dive op cut the buddy teams loose on their own.

As an aside, the DM was being a drama queen: the drop-off is "only" to around 1000ft on average. Granted, this is semantics, particuarly since its only the first ~400ft that's going to be what kills an errant diver.

To the point, while this outwardly may be considered typical by many observers, I've found that better dive operations tend to have favored dive sites for their first wall dive with a boat of unknown quality customers. While they can't necessarily do anything about the hazard of the drop-off itself, they can however pick a spot where the mooring puts a safe hard bottom under the stern of the diveboat .. an ideal one is clean sand at ~60fsw (as opposed to one where the stern tails off the wall with the first stop being in la la land). In general, this site selection is a nice (and subtle) way in which a dive op can extert some control to protect their customers from some risks...although I do have to say that some divers still die. IIRC, there was one that occurred on Cayman Brac's "East Chute" on a 'First Dive Sunday' last year.

Hearkening back to the reported accident, with the victim last seen at roughly 60fsw while on ascent would tend to suggest that the reason for no recovery was probably because they were still off the wall at this point in the dive..?

As such, a blackout due to medical while slightly negative, or even a simple OOA with an inability to become positively buoyant or signal for help ... with no buddy nearby to offer intervention / assistance ... unfortunately will result in a loss off the drop-off, and probably no way to resolve the mystery as to what the root cause was.


-hh

 

[Cave Diver]

I found two references to recent deaths attributed to medical reasons in Cayman from people doing shore dives. I also found a video that shows some of the dive site of this recent accident. It's not out of the realm of possibility that the diver had a heart attack or something as he began his ascent and fell into one of these canyons. If he stopped breathing, with no tell tale bubbles, he could be difficult to spot.

Travel Videos - Grand Cayman: Eagle Ray Pass Dive - The Compulsive Traveler

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Obviously one cant rely on some dive charters,
So how should I know if I have enough skill level to particpate in a certain dive?

We always tell charters/diveboats/dive shops we are newbies. But few have cared. (probably because most were easy dives)
My sons did a drift dive in Cozumel just 2 days after their certification this July. They had their temp cards. It was no secret they were newly certifed. They played off the wall, out over the abyss. I wasnt even scared...until this thread. We were too dumb to know better.

We even had a dive shop in Pensacola say he would take newbies out to the Orisksany. We were game for it, until after a little research we learned that most dive shops require multiple gulf dives and some even require AOW to dive the Oriskany.

When looking for a panhandle wreck dive, only one Destin shop said that our experience was too minimal and would require us to each have a DM at the cost of $25.00 extra each. I am not sure if they cared for our safety or just wanted the extra cash.

It can't be merely numbers....having 100 dives in a local quarry doesnt equate with 25 dives in the Ocean.

How am I supposed to self evaluate my abilities so I can make a decision on what I am qualified to or not to do? I wish dive sites had a rating like hiking trail heads. Other than responses from this forum, I am not sure who I would trust to give me a fair evaluation of a particular dive.

What does your gut tell you? Admittedly at first it may not tell you anything. If you don;t know what your limits are how do you obey them? Not an easy thing at first. I advise my new divers to pick sites that are within their recommended limits. That means a hard bottom at 60 feet or less, mild currents at best, and to remember their training in buddy skills, navigation, and most important dive planning. Mainly that they are responsible for their dive plan. Not some DM they have never met before and has no idea what they are and are not capable of handling. And among numerous other skills is the ability to say No to anyone who tries to push them into doing a dive that is beyond their training or comfort level. I have two students going to the Virgin Islands next year. Before they leave we are going to do a good refresher. I am also going to personally contact ops on their chosen island and make sure that the dives my people will be doing are within their limits. If not I will recommend they not use any op that does dives with new divers like the ones in this thread. I will also encourage them to report as unsafe any op that does try to get them to do these types of dives. Either to the agency the op is affiliated with, pertinent local authorities, and/or the dive community as a whole. The only way to stop these types of dangerous practices is to shine a very bright light on the ones who perpetuate them.

 

[Rick Murchison]

This is the Accidents & Incidents Forum. Please review the special rules for it.
It is a place for trying to figure out what happened, and how to avoid it in the future.
Speculation that fits the available facts can often lead to thoughtful discussion and good information on mishap prevention even if it is totally off the mark when it comes to what "really happened." This is not unkind or cruel; it is trying to learn how to be safer divers.
Again, I invite you to be specific. If you feel a post is an unjust accusation I ask that you report it, so we can take action. If you feel a post is speculation presented as fact, or in any other way violates the TOS or special rules for this forum then report that, too.
As for being quiet for fear of offending a grieving family... We aren't insensitive; we demand polite discussion; we demand speculation be declared that; we don't allow personal attacks; we demand discussion within the bounds of common decency... but we do not demand silence, as there's nothing to be learned there. If revisiting the circumstances of a mishap is upsetting to someone they should not come to this forum, 'cause revisiting the circumstances of mishaps is just what this forum is designed to do, until we've wrung every relevant lesson we can from it.
Rick

Rick,

You mentioned in your post that we should learn lessons from this and make sure it doesn't happen again...fair point and i can see what you are saying, however you, me and nobody else knows what happened on this dive, and we probably never wil.

The truth is that the only way to avoid this from happening again is to not go diving and this is not the solution.

I do feel that people on this board are very quick to accuse or as you say "fling poo", basically speculating as to what actually happened. This is a very bad thing to do as new divers who are reading this are going to be put off by all you people who are supposed to be introducing diving to the next generations. Its time to let time do some healing for the family and for us to all shut up and move on from this event, which we have absolutely nothing to do with at all.

 

[christo651]

Sorry to ask in this thread, but is there an EPIRB on the market that is depth-rated for diving? Or do you attach to your flag-float? Many times diver's don't use individual reels with flags when diving from a dive-operator's boat or if the boat is anchored to a mooring buoy, etc. Just wondering how you manage the EPIRB. Thanks.

I have the ACR and it fits in the OMS canister rated to 600', clips under my right arm pit and do not even know its there. Granted this is not going to help with an underwater emergency, but for worrying about missing the boat, this is what I do. Would share some photos if you pm me with an address.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

A few statistics to sprinkle in with the speculation.

The Cayman Islands Emergency Communications Centre (9-1-1) maintains a publically accessible log of the basic details of all calls. Only calls for assistance routed through the 9-1-1 center would show up in these statistics.

There is a category for EMS-Drowning/Diving Accident. This could include fatal and non-fatal accidents. Generally a report would only be made if an ambulance is sent - even if the ambulance does not transport a patient. Minor accidents which were successfully managed by the divers involved may not be reported. This category may include incidents related to snorkeling or other in water activity. It could also include drownings in a non-marine environment such as a bathtub.

As with any statistics, it may be an imperfect picture. A fatal diving accident might be recategorized as a Sudden Death. The Sudden Death category will include reports which are not diving or watersports related in any way. (e.g. an elderly person has a heart attack at home, a fatal car accident, etc...)

A report of a diver who goes missing and is not found might be categorized as Missing Person at Sea. This category could include reports of missing or overdue fishermen, and reports of persons who were later found in good health.

From January 1, 2009 to Sept 29, 2009 at 14:43 the log shows twenty reports in the category of EMS-Drowning/Diving Accident. That is at least a starting point.

I've been casually tracking diver deaths on Cayman for years - with a very broad brush, I'd say that there's roughly "ten to a dozen" watersports deaths per year in the Caymans (Grand+Little+Brac).
...
I've not considered or looked for non-fatal accidents, which would naturally be more frequent. However, based on casual on-site personal observations of how many ambulances I've seen showing up for diveboats, I'd SWAG this number at at least ~50/year (ie, easily one per week), if not substantially higher (maybe 150/year?).

Based upon what numbers are available, it seems that 50 ambulance call per year is too high a guesstimate but approximately 10-12 fatalites per year related to watersports in general may be in the right range.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

Moving right along to speculation...

The dive site in question is near the Main Channel where the North Sound connects to the open sea. Rarely there is some current or even downwelling if the tide is flowing out of the Sound. Without looking at tidal chart data for that day, I could not say what the tides was doing at the time of the incident. Wind was blowing (<10mph) from the East to East Southeast (a normal direction) and could only modestly contribute to any outflow from the North Sound.

In fairness, there is not normally much current, if any, in this area. Only once have I experienced a significant downwelling anywhere along the North Wall, and it was not at this site. Tidal variations are much more minimal in the tropics than in more northern latitudes. Total range is about 18 inches from highest tide to lowest tide.

We do not have information that the proximity of the wall had anything to do with this incident.

We do not have any information as to whether or not the dive operator examined log books or what other steps may have been taken to gauge skill level. We do not know the certification level of victim or his buddy but he has been reported in various accounts to have been an experienced diver.

We do not know the condition of any gear which was used. We do not know what additional safety gear (EPIRB, surface signalling device, redundant buoyancy such as lift bag, etc...), if any, was in possession of the diver.

We don't know much.

But we do know that the diver in question was reportedly staying on the island. So it would seem to me that rampant speculation about policies of various dive operators conducting dives on contract with cruise ships really does not have anything to do with THIS incident.

And that is what this thread in this particular section of the forum is about, isn't it? Analyzing this particular incident.

 

[tanks4thedive]

Its quite clear why you are not a PADI instructor... you wouldn't get any business!

Jim the dive industry is just that, an industry. Dive business owners are out there to make money just like companies who sell cars and big busnisses who sell cigarettes but when a person dies in a car accident or a member of the public dies of lung cancer we don't see people making such a fuss. Sadly this hapens from time to time.

The fact it's a dive incident makes it all the more prominent in peoples minds... what makes people think this? Especially dive instructors?

Jim you lose all respect by completley forgetting the subject here. There is a corpse involved in this discussion, you might do well do remember that fact. You state that this is a forum for informing new divers that they may be killed if they attempt to scuba dive. I would dread to think how your courses are run. You are supposed to tell students that diving is a thing that enables adventure and fun, something that even the family can enjoy yet you continue to lower the tone with horrible nasty comments.

Once again please ensure you are in posession of all the facts before you make statements such as yours as you can bet your bottom dollar the family will get wind of this and you my friend may have to defend your unpleasant comments, i for one hope you are afforded that displeasure.

For all you know Jim the dive op in question may well have translated that the dive involved may cause death, (i doubt it though), and they probably completed all paperwork and checked logs and experience levels etc. I don't think you have this info so how can you comment on this with such bravado?

This looks like a tragic accident and it should be treated as such in my opinion.

Jim i hope you can search within yourself and fnd why it was you took scuba diving up all those years ago. What was it 4 or 5 years ago? You will look back and understand that yeah it was fun and my drill seargent didn't talk about death at every possible opportunity. No he mentioned how much fun diving is and how much you get out of it.

You my friend have lost this important professional skill and you have become a diving policeman. Think 3 times yourself about commenting anymore as you don't talk sense, you talk utter garbage and you need channel your energies into your customers.... if you have any that is!!

Welcome to Jim Lap Scuba, you may die doing this but i hope you have fun...... way to go Jimbo !!!!

If you had read the post I referenced you would see that there is no speculation involved. I referenced the post because the poster stated as fact his own experience and it is clear from that experience that the ops do not care. They are taking divers who have no business on dives such as described and not checking logs, verifying experience, making sure everyone is qualified to do the dives, and failing to properly supervise them.

If they stated up front "hey this dive is on a wall, there is no hard bottom, if you are not an advanced diver you may die, and your body may not be recovered. In addition we are not doing anything other than pointing out stuff and you and your dive buddy are SOLELY responsible for your safety!" I'd have no problem at all. In fact that's what I'd like to hear on a dive boat as it would keep those who have poor skills or insufficient training out of the water. But in fact this is not happening. They are PURPOSELY misleading divers into thinking what they are doing is completely safe and routine. As a result of this they are killing some of them.

Nice move for their business, the islands, and tourism as a whole. There are enough competent divers out there to take on these dives and keep the underwater tourists in safer spots. Perhaps they should think about how many trips they lose when their boats are tied up looking for a missing diver or body. Maybe putting it in a money perspective will get through their thick skulls. Corpses don't seem to do the trick. This section is not for condolences. It is for analysis of these incidents in an attempt to identify issues that have OR may have led to these things and pass on that knowledge so others do not have to die.

And I don't see anything wrong with pointing out to new divers that this sport will kill them if they give it a chance. And there are many ways of doing that. A real good one is trusting a DM or Guide to keep them safe on a group dive. If this scares new divers or makes a potential new diver think twice about taking up this activity-GOOD!

They should be thinking twice or even three times. And if they still want to do it then maybe they will carefully consider who they train with, what training they need, where they will dive, and what ops and resorts they will dive with. If that was happening now with all new divers there would be more than few people walking around instead of in a grave or being fish food.

 

[tanks4thedive]

Member Number: 177885, Andrew K. Wilmoth

You said all you needed to say by saying " we don't know much "

in these circumstances the person walking down the street knows as much as you do so why go on about it?

If you had read the post I referenced you would see that there is no speculation involved. I referenced the post because the poster stated as fact his own experience and it is clear from that experience that the ops do not care. They are taking divers who have no business on dives such as described and not checking logs, verifying experience, making sure everyone is qualified to do the dives, and failing to properly supervise them.

If they stated up front "hey this dive is on a wall, there is no hard bottom, if you are not an advanced diver you may die, and your body may not be recovered. In addition we are not doing anything other than pointing out stuff and you and your dive buddy are SOLELY responsible for your safety!" I'd have no problem at all. In fact that's what I'd like to hear on a dive boat as it would keep those who have poor skills or insufficient training out of the water. But in fact this is not happening. They are PURPOSELY misleading divers into thinking what they are doing is completely safe and routine. As a result of this they are killing some of them.

Nice move for their business, the islands, and tourism as a whole. There are enough competent divers out there to take on these dives and keep the underwater tourists in safer spots. Perhaps they should think about how many trips they lose when their boats are tied up looking for a missing diver or body. Maybe putting it in a money perspective will get through their thick skulls. Corpses don't seem to do the trick. This section is not for condolences. It is for analysis of these incidents in an attempt to identify issues that have OR may have led to these things and pass on that knowledge so others do not have to die.

And I don't see anything wrong with pointing out to new divers that this sport will kill them if they give it a chance. And there are many ways of doing that. A real good one is trusting a DM or Guide to keep them safe on a group dive. If this scares new divers or makes a potential new diver think twice about taking up this activity-GOOD!

They should be thinking twice or even three times. And if they still want to do it then maybe they will carefully consider who they train with, what training they need, where they will dive, and what ops and resorts they will dive with. If that was happening now with all new divers there would be more than few people walking around instead of in a grave or being fish food.

Moving right along to speculation...

The dive site in question is near the Main Channel where the North Sound connects to the open sea. Rarely there is some current or even downwelling if the tide is flowing out of the Sound. Without looking at tidal chart data for that day, I could not say what the tides was doing at the time of the incident. Wind was blowing (<10mph) from the East to East Southeast (a normal direction) and could only modestly contribute to any outflow from the North Sound.

In fairness, there is not normally much current, if any, in this area. Only once have I experienced a significant downwelling anywhere along the North Wall, and it was not at this site. Tidal variations are much more minimal in the tropics than in more northern latitudes. Total range is about 18 inches from highest tide to lowest tide.

We do not have information that the proximity of the wall had anything to do with this incident.

We do not have any information as to whether or not the dive operator examined log books or what other steps may have been taken to gauge skill level. We do not know the certification level of victim or his buddy but he has been reported in various accounts to have been an experienced diver.

We do not know the condition of any gear which was used. We do not know what additional safety gear (EPIRB, surface signalling device, redundant buoyancy such as lift bag, etc...), if any, was in possession of the diver.

We don't know much.

But we do know that the diver in question was reportedly staying on the island. So it would seem to me that rampant speculation about policies of various dive operators conducting dives on contract with cruise ships really does not have anything to do with THIS incident.

And that is what this thread in this particular section of the forum is about, isn't it? Analyzing this particular incident.

 

[tanks4thedive]

wring all the lessons you can from a factless lesson. Nobody in this discussion was involved. Rick you were NOT involved. I was NOT involved. None of us were involved. Do you understand that you are going to achieve nothing but put people off. Granny scuba being the prime example.

For those new divers out there reading this please understand that this is an extremley uncommon event and diving has a brilliant safety record compared to ther sports and activities. Check out the percentages if you don't believe me.

You have a world of wonder waiting down there, people are amazed by the underwater realm everyday worldwide so brush off your sense of adventure and forget all the worries that Jim Lap has put on you mind and go diving. Thats why we all started................right?

This is the Accidents & Incidents Forum. Please review the special rules for it.
It is a place for trying to figure out what happened, and how to avoid it in the future.
Speculation that fits the available facts can often lead to thoughtful discussion and good information on mishap prevention even if it is totally off the mark when it comes to what "really happened." This is not unkind or cruel; it is trying to learn how to be safer divers.
Again, I invite you to be specific. If you feel a post is an unjust accusation I ask that you report it, so we can take action. If you feel a post is speculation presented as fact, or in any other way violates the TOS or special rules for this forum then report that, too.
As for being quiet for fear of offending a grieving family... We aren't insensitive; we demand polite discussion; we demand speculation be declared that; we don't allow personal attacks; we demand discussion within the bounds of common decency... but we do not demand silence, as there's nothing to be learned there. If revisiting the circumstances of a mishap is upsetting to someone they should not come to this forum, 'cause revisiting the circumstances of mishaps is just what this forum is designed to do, until we've wrung every relevant lesson we can from it.
Rick