Missing Diver - Grand Cayman Sept 21, 2009

[-hh]

The accident occurred in the morning during a wall dive. Normally that would be the first dive of a two tank trip.

According to the tide calculations from www.bsac.ky which pulls data from www.irbs.com , the tide should have been rising at that time and quickly approaching high tide. That would presumably preclude downwelling....

I have experienced a substantial downwelling one time along the North Wall on a dive at Tarpon Alley. This is the only noticable downwelling I have experienced in Cayman in 3000+ dives. Downwellings are rare here.

This is about wehre I'd most expect to find it on Grand Cayman, as it is a topological drop-off that's in the rough proximity of an inlet for a bay. Naturally, the strength, direction - and changes in -the prevailing winds, as well as respective water temperatures, are all factors in the physics as to what flows where.

The Bloody Bay Wall often has strong currents in the summer; which at times can be even experienced on the surface. They can be extremely strong at depths over 150 ft pulling the diver off of or downward or into the wall or upward.

Most of Cayman's walls have little or no current at the depths normally dove by the masses during the winter months...

Interesting, as I've encountered some fairly strong currents in BB, but none that were what I'd consider up/down-welling in nature. Most of my dives have been there in September, and at that time of year, the current has typically been east to west at Mixing Bowl mooring...an upcurrent swim to the miniwall into Jackson's.

In general, I'd describe these as just pretty much "straight" down the face, although there obviously would be topological factors: IIRC, Magic Roundabout is pretty exposed and right at where the wall curves in, so an East-->West there would probably blow one "off" the wall as the wall curves to the south. One woud have to swim in and hope for catching a good eddy to make it back to the mooring.


BTW, in one of the posts, the was a comment/question on the relative frequency of drift dives in the Caymans. Speaking mostly from the Brac, I'd have to say that they're around a 1% occurrance...I've had perhaps 5 of them in 500 dives. Most were off the northside heading west off the West End point (west of West Chute), but years ago, did an Eastward drift along the Southside Walls, up east around Rock Monster. It was done in an odd fashion, where the dive plan was essentially "the boat will be anchored two moorings up - - don't go past it". This dive was probably 15-20 years ago.


-hh

 

[Cave Diver]

The Bloody Bay Wall often has strong currents in the summer; which at times can be even experienced on the surface. They can be extremely strong at depths over 150 ft pulling the diver off of or downward or into the wall or upward.

Thanks for the information. All of my diving has been on Grand Cayman, so I have no experience with Bloody Bay Wall on Little Cayman.

Most of Cayman's walls have little or no current at the depths normally dove by the masses during the winter months. If you want something more extreme just talk to the guys at Divetech (or other locals in the Tech community).

Depends on what your definition of "extreme" is, but I rarely dive with the masses.

 

[Saturation]

To second hh, I've about 400+ dives along on BB, from the last far edge of Fish Eye Fantasy [ buoy no longer there] to the buoy past Cascades, down to recreationally allowable and beyond, and never once has there been a downdraft. The currents pull either east - west, and rarely are wicked, however past Cascades there is little relief from the wall as it slopes so you'll likely be blown away from the boat but can swim parallel to current to work your way to shore; there are also rare dangerous outflow currents that will pull you out to sea. But, they don't happen suddenly, but build over hours.

This is about where I'd most expect to find it on Grand Cayman, as it is a topological drop-off that's in the rough proximity of an inlet for a bay. Naturally, the strength, direction - and changes in -the prevailing winds, as well as respective water temperatures, are all factors in the physics as to what flows where.

Interesting, as I've encountered some fairly strong currents in BB, but none that were what I'd consider up/down-welling in nature. Most of my dives have been there in September, and at that time of year, the current has typically been east to west at Mixing Bowl mooring...an upcurrent swim to the miniwall into Jackson's.

In general, I'd describe these as just pretty much "straight" down the face, although there obviously would be topological factors: IIRC, Magic Roundabout is pretty exposed and right at where the wall curves in, so an East-->West there would probably blow one "off" the wall as the wall curves to the south. One woud have to swim in and hope for catching a good eddy to make it back to the mooring.

BTW, in one of the posts, the was a comment/question on the relative frequency of drift dives in the Caymans. Speaking mostly from the Brac, I'd have to say that they're around a 1% occurrance...I've had perhaps 5 of them in 500 dives. Most were off the northside heading west off the West End point (west of West Chute), but years ago, did an Eastward drift along the Southside Walls, up east around Rock Monster. It was done in an odd fashion, where the dive plan was essentially "the boat will be anchored two moorings up - - don't go past it". This dive was probably 15-20 years ago.


-hh

 

[MiG29]

I'm trying to use the quote function. How can I delete a post?

 

[MiG29]

I'd rather have an instructor who briefs me fully, including all the risks particular to the dive site, than a casual 'let's go guys! what about the drop? oh didn't I tell you? 1000 feet' type. Most people will not run away when they're told the truth, but one might die when he realises down there the difference between a casual briefing and not seeing the bottom, just the black depth, for which he wasn't prepared mentally or emotionally. And if you have a guy in the group who will run away, he wasn't really meant to be there in the first place, so in fact you have done just the best thing for him.

I'd prefer Jim as my instructor to you. No harm inteneded, I'm just being honest. I didn't have the Jim-type instructor when I was trying to get certified and I wish I had.

By the way, this way you will not lose financially. On the contrary, such attitude will attract all those people who want to know all the circumstances and ready to pay for it. This approach could be the solid basis for a thriving business in the sea of 'let's make quick money' diving operations.

Its quite clear why you are not a PADI instructor... you wouldn't get any business!

Jim the dive industry is just that, an industry. Dive business owners are out there to make money just like companies who sell cars and big busnisses who sell cigarettes but when a person dies in a car accident or a member of the public dies of lung cancer we don't see people making such a fuss. Sadly this hapens from time to time.

The fact it's a dive incident makes it all the more prominent in peoples minds... what makes people think this? Especially dive instructors?

Jim you lose all respect by completley forgetting the subject here. There is a corpse involved in this discussion, you might do well do remember that fact. You state that this is a forum for informing new divers that they may be killed if they attempt to scuba dive. I would dread to think how your courses are run. You are supposed to tell students that diving is a thing that enables adventure and fun, something that even the family can enjoy yet you continue to lower the tone with horrible nasty comments.

Once again please ensure you are in posession of all the facts before you make statements such as yours as you can bet your bottom dollar the family will get wind of this and you my friend may have to defend your unpleasant comments, i for one hope you are afforded that displeasure.

For all you know Jim the dive op in question may well have translated that the dive involved may cause death, (i doubt it though), and they probably completed all paperwork and checked logs and experience levels etc. I don't think you have this info so how can you comment on this with such bravado?

This looks like a tragic accident and it should be treated as such in my opinion.

Jim i hope you can search within yourself and fnd why it was you took scuba diving up all those years ago. What was it 4 or 5 years ago? You will look back and understand that yeah it was fun and my drill seargent didn't talk about death at every possible opportunity. No he mentioned how much fun diving is and how much you get out of it.

You my friend have lost this important professional skill and you have become a diving policeman. Think 3 times yourself about commenting anymore as you don't talk sense, you talk utter garbage and you need channel your energies into your customers.... if you have any that is!!

Welcome to Jim Lap Scuba, you may die doing this but i hope you have fun...... way to go Jimbo !!!!

 

[Jax]

So from this it appears that they are still allowing divers of unknown skill and training to do deep wall dives where the actual bottom is over a mile down? Yeah real safe and caring guides they are. More like greedy, self serving, inconsiderate, and dangerous. Must be an unwritten rule somewhere as to what an acceptable body count is.

I do feel that people on this board are very quick to accuse or as you say "fling poo", basically speculating as to what actually happened.

Personally, I find the speculating good for my thought processes -- after all, realistic considerations of 'what could happen' do contriubute to safety.

However, JimLap's point above - IMO - does not help. We are responsible for ourselves and our dive, and if people choose to dive outside their limits it is ultimately their choice. The dive ops do what time and practice have shown to be acceptable, and denigrating them for what is common practice is senseless.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Personally, I find the speculating good for my thought processes -- after all, realistic considerations of 'what could happen' do contriubute to safety.

However, JimLap's point above - IMO - does not help. We are responsible for ourselves and our dive, and if people choose to dive outside their limits it is ultimately their choice. The dive ops do what time and practice have shown to be acceptable, and denigrating them for what is common practice is senseless.

Actually the "dive ops do not do what time and practice have shown to be acceptable" when those practices violate recommended safety protocols for new divers. We are yes responsible for ourselves. My students know that. Unfortunately many do not. They are trained with the idea that a DM/Guide/AI/Instructor/Tooth Fairy will keep them safe. They may hear what their recommended limits are but you can bet they are not at all fully informed of the real risks or presented those risks in a way that sticks with them and overrides the BS that these ops throw at them. If it's ok with you then here's a hypothetical challenge. If you actually did it you should be thrown in jail but for sake of argument- Allow your son, daughter, wife, etc to take a two weekend class with a brand new OW instructor from any one of the puppy mills. then let them send them to another instructor who does not know them. he will take them for 4 quick Ow dives on a shallow reef. They'll get their card signed. Then the next day he will take them on a wall dive with no hard bottom and no assigned buddy. He'll lead them in group with 6 or 7 other and the group will be spread out over different depths.

If you are ok with that scenario I would not only not allow you to dive with me or anyone I cared about but I would not even allow you to take a class from me as in my opinion you do not possess the judgment I require from a diver to be safe. Not saying this is you. But as an instructor I signed an agreement to abode by certain standards. And for me those standards are in effect wherever I'm diving and with whoever I'm diving. That an agency makes a distinction between the behavior of a pro in class and when conducting so-called guided dives has no effect on me. I would not care what anyone else thinks. The dive would be conducted according to the abilities and limits of the least qualified diver on the boat. to do any thing more is reckless and foolish.

If you think that the scenario I offered was outlandish or too far fetched I'll show you the cause of death report for the very real diver it was taken from. In Grand Cayman. Accepted practices be damned when they get people killed. If it were divers who are informed and aware of what the risks are it's one thing. Problem is they are not informed or even properly trained.

 

[Jax24]

Does anyone know the name of the instructor of the boat that this diver went missing from? I have done a bunch of dives with DD from Treasure Island, I actually found them to be really attentive under the water, but I went on the afternoon dives, never on a morning wall dive.

I mostly had the same instructor, just curious as to who the DM was. (I am thinking it may be someone who is no longer there.)

 

[Jud1417]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsee65
How many dive operators are there on Grand Cayman, and what percentage of the market does Divers Down have? They were also the op used by the diver from the 1000+ post discussion this spring. In that thread, they were accused of cutting some corners relative to safe diving practices and Cayman Islands law.

Apparently their business practices are no better. We just got stiffed for a prepaid trip to Stingray Ray City as we cancelled our cruise due to Hurricane Alex which on our sailing date was relatively close to Cayman and headed towards Cozumel which was our second stop. The response from Nicole at Divers Down " we consider this a no-show". No intentions were made at all to accomodate us on a future trip...I guess business must be booming!!!

 

[Splash-X]

assuming you used a credit card or bank card with visa or mc logo call you card issuer and dispute the charge. The burden of proof for the transaction lie with the merchant not the consumer. They will have a tough time disputing the charge reversal and 99.99% of the time you'll get your money back!