Minimum requirements for tech courses

[phoenix31tt]

I think if you're training somebody you've never dove with before, an evaluation dive should be mandatory for tech courses


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[The Laconic]

I like a tech student to be tried and tested. Nobody is tried and tested at 25 dives. Anyone can pass any tech course in perfect conditions. It is completely possible for someone to be full trimix certified and have never dived in conditions more challenging than a deep pool.. What happens when that diver loses his ****e when presented with Real challenges that take the dive well beyond the comfort zone? I've seen it...it's not pretty.It is the same reason I won't teach AOW in a quarry.... If I sign your card, you should be competent to complete any recreational dive in a variety of conditions. Going to 60' in the quarry is not a deep dive, and a diver with 100 quarry dives and nothing else is in no way ready to do even 10 minutes of deco in the mid atlantic. A diver with the same number of dives in the mid Atlantic has probably been tried and tested by the dynamics of the ocean...I'd be much less concerned with the ocean diver freaking out when a real failure happens than the quarry diver. Long story short, what quality of dive experience does the prospective student have and what is his/her skill and comfort level? Rest assured my "assessment dive" for a prospective tech student will be in a dynamic environment....because you can doctor a logbook but you can't lie to me in the water.

Thank you. "Tried and tested", indeed. That gets at what I was driving at. Number of dives--and variety of conditions--is important, because the more dives you've done and the more different kinds of dives you've done, the more challenges you would have had to face, and face successfully. (If you hadn't, you'd wouldn't still be diving.) Do you want to be facing your first problem--even a minor problem--during a deco stop?

 

[Redshift]

You might not be tried and tested after a million dives if everything always goes right. But it's useless talking with you. I'm done with you.

Of course and that's why there isn't a magic number, but it is also wrong to dismiss completely the value of number of dives because some divers won't be good at any given number. It's much harder for a diver with 25 dives to have experienced enough to be able to go into technical training.
An AOW with 25 dives has had 16 dives on its own, or less if they've done specialties. In which conditions? With which equipment?
Maybe some will be ok for an intrudoctory deco course, but certainly not the majority.
I'd like to know from instructors here how many students with 25 dives have they had entering a deco course and passing without the need for more dives.

These things will also depend a lot on instructors. These courses can be done in a light way, single and a small stage, some instructors don't care so much about trim nor different finning techniques in ow...

 

[Seya]

Of course and that's why there isn't a magic number, but it is also wrong to dismiss completely the value of number of dives because some divers won't be good at any given number. It's much harder for a diver with 25 dives to have experienced enough to be able to go into technical training.
An AOW with 25 dives has had 16 dives on its own, or less if they've done specialties. In which conditions? With which equipment?
Maybe some will be ok for an intrudoctory deco course, but certainly not the majority.
I'd like to know from instructors here how many students with 25 dives have they had entering a deco course and passing without the need for more dives.

These things will also depend a lot on instructors. These courses can be done in a light way, single and a small stage, some instructors don't care so much about trim nor different finning techniques in ow...

I just think the sooner you introduce people that want to tech dive the better. Tech diving has many extremely important skills that benifit every diver. I never advocated anyone to do massive deco dives or pass people that aren't ready. Some people are so hung up on number of dives but they won't provide their magical number that makes people into tech divers

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[The Laconic]

They passed the course. Are you comfortable diving to 15m with a diver who just passed OW?

I don't think I'm ever going to be comfortable diving with someone who just passed OW. It's a solo dive where I'm responsible for two people.

 

[Redshift]

I'm not hung up on numbers, but more dives mean more opportunities to learn and even though some people don't take those opportunities to improve, those with few dives won't even have had the chance.
I think that more important than introducing divers to tech courses so they become better divers, is to work on the rec side and introduce more concerns about trim and buoyancy, different finning techniques, more dive planning, rescue abilities, dsmb, reel work, not let them go to the quarry time after time for all the courses and dives, etc.

 

[phoenix31tt]

I think it's probably because I'm in a "tourist" country... But I see the majority of divers not really improving over time... That's why I made it my business for me and my wife to be better and dive better... Having a 100 dives doesn't mean you faced any challenge... Except for following a pressure gauge and getting back to the boat before your air runs out...

I have +100 dives and I wouldn't say that I've faced any real challenge... Except for ones I introduced myself to be better... The learning is the challenge for me... Did I have a couple incidents... Yea but nothing challenging (a reel that unreeled, I only recently learned from a tech instructor how to stow it where it can never unreel, a disconnected inflator hose)... The greater challenge was learning how to deploy a dsmb, learning to frog kick and back kick, etc...

These are all things an intro to tech course would teach I suppose but again the average diver would know nothing about that... Everybody asks me if I'm a tech diver or tech trained... Whereas I think I dive how every diver is supposed to...


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[Bennno]

It's not so easy to generalize... People with many dives that are trained poorly sometimes turn out to be poor divers with plenty dives... Continously diving with bad habits doesn't make you a better diver than somebody with 25 dives who was impeccably trained and has natural talent to go along with it.

For YOU it's not easy to generalize. I have checked hundreds of logbooks and dove with those people. And for crying out loud, of course some people with fewer dives are better than others, but generally people with more experience are better than people with little experience. I still can't believe people are arguing this point.

A diver with 25 dive and 'impeccable' training, first of all, couldn't even judge how good his training was due to him having no experience (hardly anyone ever says their instructor sucked, yet there are a ton of bad instructors around, what does that tell you), and second, a diver with 25 dives is a beginner that has no business deco diving because he is a BEGINNER whether his training was good or not. To get good you need to go diving! 25 dives is almost nothing... people do that in one trip.

Since when is experience not important anymore? I remember a time and still know instructors that advice their students go get 50-70 dives under their belt before even taking a rescue class instead of just taking/buying a bunch of courses. Whatever happened to that? Oh wait... some instructors just want so sell one more courses to naive students.
Deep and deco diving can be quite dangerous guys, it's not to be taken lightly and don't think your the *%&# because you can swim without a mask, done a valve drill and have 100 dives in your little log book. There is no substitute for experience.

Seya, have fun in fantasy land!

I just wanna add one thing: The OP asked for deco training not for intro to tec, which is not a deco class and IMHO technically NOT a tec class despite the name. For all I care, people with 5 dives can take intro to tec.

 

[Bob DBF]

I saw a diver on another thread talking about taking PADI Tec 40, noticed he only had 25-50 dives, and then went to check the course requirements. I was surprised to find that PADI only requires 30 logged dives, together with AOW, Deep Diver, 10 dives to 30m, and 10 dives on EAN.

Then I thought, "well TDI is probably more strict", only to discover that TDI's requirements for Deco Procedures are actually less strict-- something like AOW + 25 dives.

This seems like madness. I barely feel comfortable diving with a buddy with only 25 dives, and can't imagine diving to 40m with a buddy with only 25 dives (plus the course). Am I in the minority here? If not, what would you consider to be the minimum realistic requirements for an entry-level technical diving course? I'm not necessarily talking about cave or wreck here, although that would be a fine question too, just deco diving. (If you feel the urge to respond "but all diving is deco diving", OK, but you know what I mean.)

Madness is actually no prerequisite, reading the Navy Dive Manual, and hoping your mentor is knowledgeable rather than surviving on s**t luck and a physiology that off-gasses much better than Haldane ever predicted. It used to be done that way but the accident rate was higher.

As others have said, it is the diver that certifies out of the class that counts, not the diver that enters.



Bob
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That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

Originally Posted by AfterDark
I'm in a very elite class of divers. OBDs - Old Bold Divers.

There aren't many of us which is why we're elite. We started diving when it was in some parts of the country a self taught sport. We used double hose regs no BCDs, SPGs, or PDCs. Our wet suits had no lining, we used talc to get into them. We checked our tank with a pressure gauge before we mounted our reg and made sure our J valves were in the up position. We weighted ourselves to our target depths and sometimes had a hell'va time swimming to the bottom. We used Navy dive tables for air because nothing else was available, and we used air because that's all there was to breath no matter what depth the dive. We saw our friends die from mistakes we didn't know could be made until their deaths showed us what not to do. We are in a class by ourselves. No cert or plastic card, only time, diving and luck gets you there.

 

[Seya]

For YOU it's not easy to generalize. I have checked hundreds of logbooks and dove with those people. And for crying out loud, of course some people with fewer dives are better than others, but generally people with more experience are better than people with little experience. I still can't believe people are arguing this point.

A diver with 25 dive and 'impeccable' training, first of all, couldn't even judge how good his training was due to him having no experience (hardly anyone ever says their instructor sucked, yet there are a ton of bad instructors around, what does that tell you), and second, a diver with 25 dives is a beginner that has no business deco diving because he is a BEGINNER whether his training was good or not. To get good you need to go diving! 25 dives is almost nothing... people do that in one trip.

Since when is experience not important anymore? I remember a time and still know instructors that advice their students go get 50-70 dives under their belt before even taking a rescue class instead of just taking/buying a bunch of courses. Whatever happened to that? Oh wait... some instructors just want so sell one more courses to naive students.
Deep and deco diving can be quite dangerous guys, it's not to be taken lightly and don't think your the *%&# because you can swim without a mask, done a valve drill and have 100 dives in your little log book. There is no substitute for experience.

Seya, have fun in fantasy land!

I just wanna add one thing: The OP asked for deco training not for intro to tec, which is not a deco class and IMHO technically NOT a tec class despite the name. For all I care, people with 5 dives can take intro to tec.

Why do you keep on picking on me? You are living in the fantasy land. I think people should be judged with a dive assement before technical training nothing is more through than that. You're trying to sounds like some big shot super teacher. What is the number of dives someone needs before they take a tech class? I don't think any number should be used. I want assessments done but that is not what the agencies want. You keep on avoiding my questions but I'll answer all of yours

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