Mexico vs Florida (better training caves)

[rjack321]

That's hard to get my head around--"perceptual awareness to see and understand the caves in MX ...." Is that like being super-observant of the cave's features? If so, are you saying that learning not to be a line hugger by being super-observant/aware is something that MX training emphasizes? ("Learning the cave" as opposed to merely following the line was mentioned in my FL Intro course as being a skill to develop, but not expected of me to demonstrate in the course itself.) How much perceptual awareness can one develop in a 5 or 6-day course, anyway? Wouldn't that be a skill that is mainly acquired over multiple dive trips to MX?

@kierentec pretty much nailed this answer. Basically most students in FL are pretty focused on the flow, how to get out of it. "Reading" the cave? Not so much.

In MX you have a whole lot less work, CO2, less depth and shallower END. But there are far more jumps, some poorly marked and close to the mainline, there are no or few caves with arrows every 100ft etc. Basically you need to be looking around a whole lot more - including back the way you came to recognize the exit. That kind of awareness isn't as much of a focus in FL with more linear systems where flow takes you home and there is giant gold line and almost no tricky accidental jumps you could take.

Also, since Full Cave focuses on navigation, wouldn't the increased complexity of MX be an advantage over FL? Or is that backwards--you want to learn navigation where it's easier?

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FL is plenty complex once you get off the gold line. At both locations a full cave student is unlikely to be making more than about 3 or 4 navigational decisions anyway, and that many nav. decisions would only be late in the course. Life gets pretty interesting when your OOA and got no lights 2 jumps and a T back whether its Ginnie or Taj Mahal doesn't really matter much.

 

[rjack321]

A side note: My full cave instructor told me that you can always spot the new cave divers because they turn their heads side to side when swimming in the cave because they are still living in a 2-D world. Learn to look up at the ceiling and see the full picture.

Mexico is a little more Stereo than FL.

I think we have all done "that dive" where we didn't actually look up after the primary tie until we basically ran into a wall. Being hyperfocused on the tieoffs - on the floor.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm thinking about doing that route.

Apprentice/Basic in Florida (scheduled to be done in November). Go to Mexico and if allowed Bahamas and do some dives with a guide. And then finish in Florida for my full cave.

When I move to Greece, I'll hire Stratis Kas, as he seems to the "the cave guy" in Greece to get familiar with the various cave networks there. I'd imagine they are not as extensive or impressive as Florida, but I'll be able to dive them consistently.

 

[rjack321]

I'm thinking about doing that route.

Apprentice/Basic in Florida (scheduled to be done in November). Go to Mexico and if allowed Bahamas and do some dives with a guide. And then finish in Florida for my full cave.

Bahamas is FULL cave territory, restrictions, super delicate, and potentially deep. There are probably a few intro sites somewhere, but you really need full cave and a bunch of post full dives to be qualified there.

 

[tursiops]

Bahamas is FULL cave territory, restrictions, super delicate, and potentially deep. There are probably a few intro sites somewhere, but you really need full cave and a bunch of post full dives to be qualified there.

Diving in Abaco with Brian Kakuk made all the years and dollars and dives elsewhere worth it.

 

[Lorenzoid]

In MX . . . there are far more jumps, some poorly marked and close to the mainline, there are no or few caves with arrows every 100ft etc. Basically you need to be looking around a whole lot more - including back the way you came to recognize the exit. That kind of awareness isn't as much of a focus in FL with more linear systems where flow takes you home and there is giant gold line and almost no tricky accidental jumps you could take.

So how might that come into play in a training context? Do students who don't improve their awareness find that it compounds the problems they have to solve? Like during a training exercise they get disoriented and maybe lose the line, so now they have to not only address the original problem but also find the line? I can imagine that would help improve one's awareness real fast.

 

[rjack321]

So how might that come into play in a training context? Do students who don't improve their awareness find that it compounds the problems they have to solve? Like during a training exercise they get disoriented and maybe lose the line, so now they have to not only address the original problem but also find the line? I can imagine that would help improve one's awareness real fast.

If you lose the line outside of your official lost line drill(s) you are going to "die" - real fast. If that happens more than once I think any good instructor is taking you back to the cavern for the rest of your course to work remedial skills so your mental bandwidth isn't so overwhelmed when a light dies, lose a mask, or OOA that you are also inadvertently losing the line.

ps this is also why you absolutely can't be kicking in circles doing an airshare or taking out a backup mask etc. You can exit without a mask, but swimming off the line while taskloaded by a pocket is no bueno.

 

[Lorenzoid]

If you lose the line outside of your official lost line drill(s) you are going to "die" - real fast. If that happens more than once I think any good instructor is taking you back to the cavern for the rest of your course to work remedial skills so your mental bandwidth isn't so overwhelmed when a light dies, lose a mask, or OOA that you are also inadvertently losing the line.

So then what in MX, other than simply having spent more time actually in the cave than one could (due to depth and flow) in FL, is the motivator that results in a student leaving the course with better "awareness" than he might have left a FL course with?

 

[rjack321]

So then what in MX, other than simply having spent more time actually in the cave than one could (due to depth and flow) in FL, is the motivator that results in a student leaving the course with better "awareness" than he might have left a FL course with?

Well MX dives at 1/6ths are probably twice as long with twice the penetration distance, so you get a lot more bottom time per vacation dollar at the entry level in MX. Otherwise, I don't want to guess which cavern/intro/cave1 etc student comes out "better". I've taken 2 courses in MX and 2 in FL, they are just different learning environments. Some students excel in one and suck in the other and vice versa.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Well MX dives at 1/6ths are probably twice as long with twice the penetration distance, so you get a lot more bottom time per vacation dollar at the entry level in MX. Otherwise, I don't want to guess which cavern/intro/cave1 etc student comes out "better".

So it sounds like the improved awareness that some have said students might gain from training in MX as opposed to FL simply comes from having been able to spend more time looking around. If that's the case, I would think regardless of whether a diver trains in MX or FL, he could improve his awareness just by doing more diving in MX.