Mentoring a new diver the minimalist way

[gonphishing]

most of us on the north coast have some free diving exp as well. it comes natural to some of us. back pack diving rocks! sharpens the skills. I think the dmv should hand out motorcycle lic for 6 months before one takes the wheel of a car. bet we would have a lot better drivers out there. nothing like speeding down the road at 60 mph. with nothing between you. one learns respect quickly.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Just couldn't resist that crack at GUE, could ya? Try to keep in mind what type of diving they're training folks for ... see below ...


All well and good if you're just diving a single rig. Try using lung control with no wing when you're packing 240 CF of backgas and 80 or 120 CF of deco gas. Won't work unless you've got lungs with about 30 lbs of lift capacity.
You guys seem to be just as hung up on the old "there's only one right way to dive" mentality as the other guys are.

Good luck with your mentoring ... I'm a firm believer that mentoring is and has always been the backbone of real dive instruction. Just try not to build walls that may later inhibit this person's ability to branch out and explore other types of diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

That's what we do is dive single tanks. Good for you that you like to haul around 240 CF of back gas and a bunch of slung 80's. We're not into that. I'd like to see you keep up with us on a hunt or a bug dive with all that crap. I'm sure you'd like to see us with our skimpy gear keep up with you on a 300 foot dive with ton's of deco. Ain't gonna happen either way. Two different dives with two different sets of gear for each.

We're not hung up on anything. I don't go around telling people they're going to die if they don't dive my way. What's an internet site for if one can't express the joy they experience with a certain style of diving. I just want people to at least realize there is another way to do things and to break out of the industry shell that has been created by agencies, dive shops and instructors which in my opinion have set up the industry to fleece as much money out of the diving populace to grow their wallets and insure their existence.

I think the wall was already built by the other guys from the first time my buddy stepped into the dive shop and got certified. By me and my group mentoring him the wall will be broken down and he can see the rest of the diving world.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Well, actually, OW students are taught and trained that it is a "life jacket" of sorts and is used as such when on the surface. Regardless of your opinion, it is part of the training and is taught and tested.

You might not want a BC and are certainly welcome to not use one, however taking a newly certified diver and convincing him to give it up is just begging for a fatality and a lawsuit, since every OOA emergency procedure taught in OW ends with the diver on the surface, inflating his BC.

Terry

I think this is one of the single most disastrous practices in OW training today, teaching students that a BC is a big safety tube on the surface and overweighting them to make it easy on the instructors. This is where I agree with the DIR philosophy 100% about the atrocities commited by these so called instructors that weight their students like anchors to make sure they stay down so they can get the skills over with on their knees then kick them loose and tell them good luck.
A BC IS NOT a life jacket and it even says so on the inside tag of every BC and wing I've ever seen.
In almost every case for exception of super gear intensive tech diving with minimal exposure protection the diver should be positive at the surface with no air in a wing or BC. At the end of a dive the diver should be neutral at 10 to 15 feet with all air expelled from the BC and should be able to hold a perfect stop using breath control exlcusively. This is the definition of peak buoyancy.

There was a guy who died in Southern California 50 feet from the beach in 15 feet of
water because his BC inflator hose came off at the BC connection. He was overweighted and all the air escaped in a second from the BC sending him straight to the bottom before he could utter a sound. He was tired from the surface swim and had an empty tank. He fumbled trying to get his integrated weights out and get his junk off but wasn't able to do it. He panicked and drowned right there almost to the beach. His buddy was ahead of him and made it through the surf zone. When he looked back to see how his buddy was doing he was nowhere in sight. Just a minute earlier they where talking and laughing getting ready to hit the surf zone. His last words were "Here we go, see you on the beach".

This is what overweighting and counting on a bag full of air to keep you floating will get you,... dead.

There, I said it.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Interesting thread. Too bad it became a bit "testy", there is some good info in here.

What ZKY is advocating is essentially how scuba was taught and practiced up through maybe the mid-to-late 1970's. I was certified in 1976... no BC's used in class. Most of my dives over the years have been "sans" BC .

Properly weighted with a single tank, it sounds like the mentoring ZKY is proposing would benefit many new divers.

This type of diving can be done with a level of safety that is at least comparable to diving with a BC, and should not have created the controversy in this thread that it did. ZKY was not suggesting technical dives in doubles and stages.

It sounds like ZKY and his dive buddies will do a fine job mentoring their friend... much like the type of mentoring many of us received in the pre-BC days

 

[Web Monkey]

overweighted and all the air escaped in a second from the BC sending him straight to the bottom before he could utter a sound. He was tired from the surface swim and had an empty tank.

Out of Air and unable to ditch weights has nothing to do with BCs.

Terry

 

[Slonda828]

Regardless of the competence of the OW instructor, taking away a new diver's BC invalidates a great deal of OW training and creates a huge liability.

Terry

You act like open water training is this intense, multi-month activity. If ZKY mentors his friend to replace a BC with skill and they practice it, he'll learn that to a higher degree of proficiency than when he did his 5 open water dives and sum total of 5-8 hours of pool time (typical). In all honesty, how many of us who took an open water course thought it was at all a indicator of skill or proficiency? I'm not suggesting that open water training isn't valuable, but I think using a phrase like "creating a huge liability" has limited use. We're talking about training that took maybe three days (in most cases) if you added it together versus practicing something on a weekly basis. Besides, using terms like liability makes you sound like a paranoid dive shop owner and not a diver.

Out of Air and unable to ditch weights has nothing to do with BCs.

It does when you are trained to use your BC like a life jacket to provide positive buoyancy at the surface because you are trained to dive overweighted so you can kneel on the bottom of the pool and make the instructor's life easier. Even you have to admit that new divers are not trained to tread water while being overweighted and out of air.

You know what it a way to fix that skill gap? That's right, A MENTOR!

 

[Web Monkey]

skill or proficiency? I'm not suggesting that open water training isn't valuable, but I think using a phrase like "creating a huge liability" has limited use.

I meant exactly what I said. Telling a new diver to get rid of equipment that the mainstream agencies use as an integral part of their safety protocol would be a very big liability in the event anything bad happens to the new diver. The OP would essentially be re-training the diver how to dive, which would put him in the same position as any of the training agencies, however he would be lacking a curriculum, lawyers and insurance.

If anything bad happened, a good lawyer would have a field day.

Terry

 

[novicediver]

I smell chips on someone's shoulder

 

[gonphishing]

I meant exactly what I said. Telling a new diver to get rid of equipment that the mainstream agencies use as an integral part of their safety protocol would be a very big liability in the event anything bad happens to the new diver. The OP would essentially be re-training the diver how to dive, which would put him in the same position as any of the training agencies, however he would be lacking a curriculum, lawyers and insurance.

If anything bad happened, a good lawyer would have a field day.

Terry

good thing we wont be with a dive shop or agency. wouldn't want to spoil the dive plan. its kind of of a mute point. who gives a shi% what your LDS says. don't knock it until you try it. if you did you might see the light. have you ever pack dove. usually I wouldn't speak of such things especially with such conviction unless I was in the know. you just don't know another way. you need to come out to our coast. we will break your brain washed views . its safer than you think.


you should be asking questions. not ridiculing and picking apart with your intellect.
:mooner:

 

[Nemrod]

I meant exactly what I said. Telling a new diver to get rid of equipment that the mainstream agencies use as an integral part of their safety protocol would be a very big liability in the event anything bad happens to the new diver. The OP would essentially be re-training the diver how to dive, which would put him in the same position as any of the training agencies, however he would be lacking a curriculum, lawyers and insurance.

If anything bad happened, a good lawyer would have a field day.

Terry

Oh baloney, enough with the internet legal analysis. No one is "telling" anyone anything, he can choose on his on accord or not. It is an adult choice, a concept you are missing it seems. We are not children.

"Good" and "lawyer" in one sentence, is that an oxymoron?

I am tired of lawyers running my life, don't do this, don't touch that, wear this, don't remove that tag, bah humbug to it all.

N