Medical Approval Issues

[oly5050user]

The drug user lived through his experience. Learn how to read. I wrote what he told the ER doctor treating him. Again no one has the right to knowingly put others at risk by lying on a medical form. If he signed yes and got a medical from his doctor ( the doctor allowing him to participate would be very unlikely) then he would be allowed to participate. By signing no and not consulting with his doctor he knowingly put himself and everyone else at risk. If he died there of course would be a lawsuit started by his family and could have been all,prevented by being honest and not a stupid ass.

 

[RJP]

I'd sign that second form if I couldn't get a doc to bend over to assume your liability.

So it seems that you do in fact understand that you are willfully increasing your instructors liability by lying on your medical form?

As you mentioned above, I willingly accept a certain level of risk in being an instructor. That is my right. You seem to believe that because I have accepted X-level of risk you have the right to increase that level of risk to X+Y, with neither my knowledge or permission. You don't.

You don't need to "buy" my argument or judgement here. Only I do.

The fact that you think the industry is "bullying" people into lying seems to be projection on your part. I'm not bullying people into anything. You continue to be confused in your thinking, believing that I am saying "I won't accept you as a student if you have a "YES" on your form." That is not the case. What I am saying is that you should be truthful on the medical form... and if doing so means needing to get medical clearance from your physician, so be it. If you are unwilling to be truthful, or unwilling to get medical clearance if needed.. you're not diving with me.

Trust me, I've had my approach to this vetted by my attorney. This is why, unlike many ops/instructors I very specifically do not say "You must answer 'NO' to all the questions or else you will need to get medical clearance." Doing so sets medical clearance up as a punitive measure to be avoided. What I say is "You must answer all questions truthfully." It would be very hard for anyone to interpret that as tacit direction to lie on the form.

 

[redacted]

You know what seems to work pretty well... asking students who sign the medical form to also sign a separate form attesting to the fact that they have truthfully executed the medical form, and that they understand that:

• if it becomes known that this is not the case once the course begins they will be dropped as a student with no refund
• if anything on the form changes from "NO" to "YES" during the course they will be required to get physician clearance; if they are not cleared they will have the choice of receiving a pro-rated refund or completing the course at a future date if they are able to be cleared

You'd be surprised how people's "memory" improves after reading the second form.

I doubt if your idea would cause much problem. In fact, I'm sure other instructors in your area would live it.

Got to love credit cards. They do make it a bit harder for businesses to steal $$ from customers.

 

[RJP]

I doubt if your idea would cause much problem.

Agreed... it doesn't cause me any problems whatsoever.

 

[redacted]

The drug user lived through his experience. Learn how to read. I wrote what he told the ER doctor treating him. Again no one has the right to knowingly put others at risk by lying on a medical form. If he signed yes and got a medical from his doctor ( the doctor allowing him to participate would be very unlikely) then he would be allowed to participate. By signing no and not consulting with his doctor he knowingly put himself and everyone else at risk. If he died there of course would be a lawsuit started by his family and could have been all,prevented by being honest and not a stupid ass.

I'm not sure why you think a customer has any greater obligation to be honest and truthful with a business than a business, like a dive shop, has with a customer. Have you ever heard some of the lies dive shops tell about competitors like LeisurePro?

More to the point, I doubt if many divers set out to "knowingly put others at risk". I suspect most of them know that their condition presents no risk to themselves or others and answering NO simply avoids an unnecessary hassle.

Perhaps if the industry used the right size net, they would have more success with their targets and less problems from by-catch.

 

[RJP]

I'm not sure why you think a customer has any greater obligation to be honest and truthful with a business than a business has with a customer,

They don't. They merely have the SAME obligation.

More to the point, I doubt if many divers set out to "knowingly put others at risk". I suspect most of them know that their condition presents no risk to themselves or others and answering NO simply avoids an unnecessary hassle.

Again, it is the height of arrogance for Diver A to believe they have any right whatsoever to make a decision about what does or does not present a risk to Diver B.

 

[redacted]

Again, it is the height of arrogance for Diver A to believe they have any right whatsoever to make a decision about what does or does not present a risk to Diver B.

I suspect you do that all the time.

 

[RJP]

I suspect you do that all the time.

Not without including Diver B in the conversation.

 

[redacted]

Perhaps something could be added to the form like: "I agree to accept responsibility for omissions regarding my failure to disclose any existing or past medical condition."

What effect would something like that have?

 

[RJP]

Perhaps something could be added to the form like: "I agree to accept responsibility for omissions regarding my failure to disclose any existing or past medical condition."

What effect would something like that have?

While I'm not a lawyer my understanding is that would have no effect on reducing liability... since a dead person can't accept responsibility for anything. Legally you cannot sign away the right of your widow, your kids, your estate, etc to sue someone.

In fact, to me it would seem on it's face to have the opposite effect Instead of protecting, including such language sends a pretty clear message that it is acceptable to "not disclose" as long as you tick this box. "As a dive professional you know the risks of diving far, far better than the deceased did. I mean, they hadn't yet had any training on dive physiology, physics, etc when the were asked to sign the form... right? So please explain to the jury, Mr. RJP, why you gave the deceased the option to not disclose the fact that he has asthma. In doing so, didn't you actually deprive him of the benefit of your expertise - the very expertise he was paying you for - in determining whether he was fit to dive?"

This is why I was advised to have students attest to the fact that they filled out the form truthfully, rather than asking them to accept responsibility for lying on it. They cannot be expected to understand the implications of diving with various medical conditions BEFORE they have taken the course. But they can certainly be expected to know whether they lied on the form.