'Maximum' dive depth based on certification

[NAM001]

Dealing with this is currently part of the PADI Open Water class.

It is good that they are trying to deal wit this but at the end of day it is still to o common of a problem. and that is not the only issue with new divers at depth. There is low on air because they have never experienced the fast rate of gas usage. loosing weights or belts. All things that takes time to learn and know how to prevent form happening. In PADI's or any agencies behalf there is not enough time to deal with all the issues in an OW class. IMO that is where AOW comes in.

That is where the value of staying shallow for several dives come in to play. It allows them to make mistakes at a depth that is much more forgiving. I would say that people with over 50-100 dives have experienced 99.9% of these issues have them worked out. If it were not for the many good divers coming to the aid of many newbies the accident numbers would be much higher.

 

[NAM001]

Where do you dive?
I have barely seen any diver with OOG or a malfunktion of the 1. / 2. stage. Definitely not routinely.

Anyway do you think a routined OW has more troubles than a fresh AOWD?

Im not sure what you are asking but I will guess. teh OOG is seen often becasue they dont realize how fast they are using gas in deep water. The other trick question I am guessing you are asking basically: Is an OW with 50 dives vs a new AOW with 6 dives A New AOW is really an OW with a new card. And no I would expect that a OW with many dives is far better than a new AOW new carded from a back to back classes. If it is an OW with 100 dives that just got around to getting the AOW then that is not an issue. As I see it he got a card to document his expertise. Its a matter of training coupled with experience that indicates the potential of problems to happen. Either way when presented with nothing more than a QW card you dont know any of that. At least with an AOW card an operator can say he was given official documentation to state adaquate training was given to do a 100 ft dive. A OW card can not do that. If the next question is would I refuse to dive with a new OW in questionable waters beyond my estimate of what they can do ..... The answer is YES. I have done it on 3 occasions. I did one trip where in one day 2 tanks fell out of BCD's and one guy went low on air upon direct decent to 80 ft. and went OOA on the next dive and had to be brought up. That as it turned out was from anxiety of his first ocean dive and first dive in several years. Something like 20 dives on a 4-5 YO OW card and on vacation. The next day one more tank fall out on another diver. Thats just 2 sequential days in a week of diving in Destin on one trip. Ife had to aid new OW's again in a cavern when their valve rolled shut. NO need to say it,,,, they extended themselves too far for their abilities. Ive pulled divers out of teh boat screws because they would not take operator directions regarding surfacing points and tried to surface at the boat ladder. This is not equipment issues it is thought process issues. Each one of these incidents could have been a statistic but did not because of others in the area coming to assist and all with associated buddy skills problems. You cant teach this stuff in a 20-40 hour class. It takes time.

 

[Bob DBF]

There needs to be easy work-a-rounds whether it's checkout dives, further discussion with the diver in question, vouching by other known divers etc.. I'm not saying divers should be able to walk-in off the street and demand an advanced dived (even if they have an AOW) without some level of vetting, but just going below 60 ft. in benign conditions doesn't make for an advanced dive and making an experienced OW diver jump through an additional hoop for just this reason is, IMHO, silly.

By vetting a diver the dive op brings liability on themselves by saying the diver is qualified to do the dive, using a c-card the shifts the liability onto the divers training and the certification training limits. The only check out dives I have seen are in places where the chances of a lawsuit, never mind winning, is minimal.

Dealing with this is currently part of the PADI Open Water class.

I was taught that back in '80 as well, whether it is overlooked in order to speed up the class is on the instructor, not the agency.

On PADI's behalf there is not enough time to deal with all the issues in a class.

Not particularly picking on PADI, there is time for all of that if the instructor takes the time. Moving customers through as fast a possible at the minimum interpretation of standards and skipping things that are "not necessary" is the problem. Further, the break up of the class to online, confined water with one instructor, and open water with another, seems to me to leave a lot of room for issues to be missed.



Bob

 

[NAM001]

By vetting a diver the dive op brings liability on themselves by saying the diver is qualified to do the dive, using a c-card the shifts the liability onto the divers training and the certification training limits. The only check out dives I have seen are in places where the chances of a lawsuit, never mind winning, is minimal.



I was taught that back in '80 as well, whether it is overlooked in order to speed up the class is on the instructor, not the agency.



Not particularly picking on PADI, there is time for all of that if the instructor takes the time. Moving customers through as fast a possible at the minimum interpretation of standards and skipping things that are "not necessary" is the problem. Further, the break up of the class to online, confined water with one instructor, and open water with another, seems to me to leave a lot of room for issues to be missed.



Bob

I just stopped at a new shop and asked prices for classes 400 for OW and 250 for AOW rescue 300 nitrox 125. 250 miles to get to water deep enough to do a AOW dive. Most young ( or the parents of the young) will not shell out those bucks. only the min to go on a cruise with a date.
That again is a formula for problems.

 

[Joebar]

@KWS
Fully agree with the documentation of AOWD with the card

But we must have really different experiences with divers. I really never run into a diver with the problems you describe.

The worst dives for me was with the so called „Advanced“ Divers. Not because of technical problems, its because of bad Buddy Awarenes.

 

[yle]

If you say that OW can be taught at 60 ft ,,,, Ill give you that. The last class I attended said their OW course training restriction was 40 ft and that no open water dives would exceed that depth.

PADI standards for the OW course are 40 ft max depth for OW dives 1 and 2, 60 ft max depth for OW dives 3 and 4. It's possible that some shops will create a policy of "40 ft max depth for all OW dives", just so that they don't have to worry about instructors getting confused over the different PADI imposed limits of 1&2 versus 3&4.

Just my guess...

 

[dmaziuk]

I dive so so one can talk to me. Last thing I want is comms!!

You know the argument, I'm sure: it's better to have and never use than to not have in the moment of need. Also, comms don't talk to people, bullets do.

 

[AdivingBel]

LOL...I apologize. I forgot to add the facetious icon to the post concerning scuba helmets, but the thread goes where the thread goes...

 

[Bob DBF]

It's possible that some shops will create a policy of "40 ft max depth for all OW dives", just so that they don't have to worry about instructors getting confused over the different PADI imposed limits of 1&2 versus 3&4.

Or they don't have access to water deeper than 40'.


Bob

 

[AdivingBel]

This all makes sense if you say that even if todays diving course is broke up into modules the thought is that you are taking one mod after another with the intent of completing all mods. That just does not happen and there lies the problem.

Sorry, I don't see the problem in this instance. There wasn't any new information concerning diving below 60 ft. in AOW that wasn't covered in OW. Sure it was reiterated (a good thing) and you do perform the one deep dive with an instructor but I contend that particular experience can easily be replaced through actual progressive diving. It certainly doesn't rise to the level of mandating an additional certification beyond OW to dive below 60 ft..

...not with the experienced decades old divers but the new ones that do one mod and then over load themselves

The experienced OW divers I dive with (the ones with hundreds/over a thousand dives) went through current OW training, not the YMCA days. The reason they have so many dives and only have an OW cert was there was never a question of depth limits other than 130 ft.. It's the discussion of 60 ft. OW depth limits for non-training dives that is recent, at least in the parts of the world they routinely dive.