Master.........Really?

[TMHeimer]

Packrat lists a lot of logical things, though I am not well-versed at all in business building and marketing. It would be a difficult task indeed to draw up something that would truly indicate that someone is a Master. There have been many discussions about PADI vs. NAUI MSDs. They are different. NAUI all the theory in the MSD course that is (or was) in the PADI DM course. How much of this is necessary to be a MSD is debatable (some of the stuff is nice to know, but won't really help you in a wicked unexpected current). PADI has the required 5 specialties, which IMO IF all were directly related to diver skill or safety, would compare with NAUI, and have perhaps even more required dives. Either way, you still have to find a way to certify a truly deserving diver to MSD status. How do you do that? A specific number of dives--like 1,000? Dives in a myriad of locales and situations? Signed logs? What about log book fakers (are there really any?). Or perhaps one giant practical test that requires the diver to do everything imaginable that divers with all kinds of specialties do. Seems a difficult task.

Oh, before someone replies, I forgot about the US Navy MSDs. Everyone that mentions this says these are truly Master divers. I know nothing of this course, but have no reason not to believe that's true. Two current problems of course are not everyone is availed of this course because of course not everyone is in the Navy or lives in the U.S. So, perhaps whatever they require should be what civilian dive agencies require? This may end the ever popping up MSD debate?

 

[JamesBon92007]

I haven't been around that long, but so far, for recreational dive operators, I haven't seen any that were requiring any certifications beyond AOW and Nitrox. I've seen ones that require advanced plus "previous night diving experience and 25 or more logged dives" or similar. But, other than the AOW, that is not a requirement for any actual certifications.
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When I did the manta ray night dive in Kona last March they asked if I'd done any night diving before. I had not. I don't think the DM gave a rat's tail-feathers about my Master Diver certification. Was I qualified to do a night dive? Most certainly. I have lots of experience in much more demanding situations. Since it was only a maximum of 45 feet any old certification would do other than the previous night dive requirement. In some case they require a "check-out" dive during the day first but in my case they did not. Was it because I have a Master Diver certification? Or was it simply my demeanor--confident but not reckless or cocky? When I landed at the airport after flying 2500 miles I picked up my rental car and headed to the dive shop to book my dive. Afterwards I got some dinner and checked into my condo. Needless to say I was the first one in the water. Maybe it showed.

What is the definition of a Master Diver? Someone who knows everything, I guess. I'll let you know when I meet him/her. I sure as hell have not done everything regardless of what it says on my C-Card. The only thing I'm possibly Master of is my own destiny.

I'm going to Los Cabos in a few months and they have a dive that requires Nitrox certification. It is a 140 foot dive and they are basically saying that we would be exceeding the No Decompression Limits for air. Master Diver does not (necessarily) include Nitrox so I would need to take that course to do the dive. However, I'm 63 years old and have clogged arteries. Common sense tells me it's not a good idea. Where did this common sense come from? I think it is the sum total of decades of experience and knowledge. If I did not know what I know I would not know that it's probably a bad idea, at least the way they are supposedly doing it. Can this common sense and knowledge be taught? I think the question is not can it be, but is it being taught.

 

[TMHeimer]

Good points--except about knowing everything. I have a Master of Music and a lifetime of playing professionally and teaching. I do consider myself a Master at that, though I know there are maybe 100,000 clarinet players that are better than me. Though I have been playing since 4th grade in 1963, I only practise most days for an hour, while some do ten times that much (in some cases, literally). So it gets back to defining "Master".

 

[BDSC]

I know several folks who have obtained the "Master Diver" rating from PADI. They all went through the necessary courses and paid the fee to get the card. Of the ones I have talked to about the entire process, I have yet to meet a single one that remotely considered themselves a master diver. For them it was simply a personal accomplishment that they had set out to achieve and obtaining the card was a recognition of that accomplishment.

The only folks I have run into that have had a problem with PADI's rating of "Master Diver" have been people on the internet. It doesn't seem to be a real life issue with anyone else.

 

[JamesBon92007]

I know several folks who have obtained the "Master Diver" rating from PADI. They all went through the necessary courses and paid the fee to get the card. Of the ones I have talked to about the entire process, I have yet to meet a single one that remotely considered themselves a master diver. For them it was simply a personal accomplishment that they had set out to achieve and obtaining the card was a recognition of that accomplishment.

The only folks I have run into that have had a problem with PADI's rating of "Master Diver" have been people on the internet. It doesn't seem to be a real life issue with anyone else.

My interpretation of the original premise of this thread was that the author was questioning the choice of the name "Master Diver" over other possible choices because of the degree of accomplishment it invokes in some people's minds is not necessarily equal to the abilities of the card-holder: it conjures up images of supernatural deities with mystical powers. For me, anyway. Too much nitrogen, perhaps

 

[Diving Dubai]

The trouble is, people believe that they've accomplished something getting MSD. They haven't not really. They are deceiving themselves.

Lets look at the logic.. MSD requires 50 dives (so technically a minimum of 17 hrs underwater) plus Rescue and 5 specialties.

Every course you take only give you the minimum knowledge required. Taking OW doesn't make you a competent diver, the same can be said for AoW and RD

Take a specialty course. (I'll use Dry suit) 2 x OW dives in a dry suit gives you the minimum theory and practice - in my case I needed a further 10 dives to get properly weighted and the whole thing fine tuned. You can pick any card and say the same.

So the problem in my eyes is that people go for the card without consolidating their skills and knowledge

Perhaps if MSD required a buoyancy test (say +/- 12") and required proof of diving in different conditions (not 50 quarry dives which could happen) perhaps if there were tests to say you've studied an achieved a high standard on diving (say similar to DM but without the instructor element) Can the person do skills to a high standard, Can the candidate navigate and lead a buddy pair properly has the diver had a decent number of hours underwater

If this was the case it would be worth something and the person holding it could be respected. As it is, it's a joke and those that get it are in mistaken if they think that anything they've learnt is anything other than a basic introduction to the subject

 

[stuartv]

The trouble is, people believe that they've accomplished something getting MSD. They haven't not really. They are deceiving themselves.

I got my SDI MSD. What I accomplished was:

- successfully completing 50 dives.
- Advanced Buoyancy Control
- Nitrox
- Dry Suit
- Wreck
- Deep
- Rescue

You are certainly entitled to your opinion that I accomplished nothing, but I sure feel like I accomplished a few things. I was definitely a HUGELY better diver after completing all that than I was before I took the first specialty course. And I think I was at least a LOT better diver than I would have been if I had done the same number of dives, in the same locations, without taking any of that training.

How am I deceiving myself? You think all that training gave me zero benefit? That is the only logical interpretation I can come up with to the statement "people believe they've accomplished something... [when] they haven't."

How many divers have you personally talked to that got their MSD cert and you feel like had some overblown opinion of their skills? How about some examples?

 

[TMHeimer]

The last couple of posts make good points. But I tend to agree with BDSC in that it doesn't seem to be a real life issue. It is a way to pass time on SB.

 

[scubadada]

...I'm going to Los Cabos in a few months and they have a dive that requires Nitrox certification. It is a 140 foot dive and they are basically saying that we would be exceeding the No Decompression Limits for air. Master Diver does not (necessarily) include Nitrox so I would need to take that course to do the dive.

A 140 foot dive would preclude any nitrox % greater than 26% due to MOD at pO2 of 1.4. There's something fishy about this dive or your descripton. All Master Divers are not created equal.

 

[Diving Dubai]

@stuartv

I didn NOT say you have accomplished nothing. You have taken additional training. The fact still remains that you can take say a DS course (I'll use that example because I've done it myself) collect the card and do no other DS diving. So according to the Agency you are competent is DS diving.

We both know that's rubbish. You take the class and learn the basics, consolidate the information and improve with practice and experience. I'n my case it took 10-15 dive to become competent but I'm certainly not in a place to mentor someone.

You took Advanced Buoyancy Control. Excellent. Where? I had to sit the BSAC buoyancy test, I attained black level which is +/-0.1m change in depth in the ocean mid water carrying out a task (smb deployment in my case).

Now can I attain that +/-0.1m in normal diving, no. It takes enormous concentration - but I can if I put my mind to it. That control didn't come from 2 dives and a 1 day course it came after doing some exercises and a lot of practice.

Rescue. Done that too. You learn the basics and they tell you that if someone more skilled comes along (DM or instructor) you would assist. However you have some skills which are better than none.

Wreck, again are you seriously telling me that after 2 dives and a bit of classroom you're component to lead wreck penetration? Of course not. However you do have an understanding of the theory and practices to allow you to make decisions and so hopefully you know what you don't know.

Just getting these basics IMO doesn't qualify someone for MSD.

Even though I don't agree with the DM cert okay, I can appreciate and respect the amount of time and effort required not only to complete but to reach a standard. The holders of the card can hold their head up high as they've achieved something

Currently with MSD all people do is meet the minimum requirement of an "adventure dive" or introduction to a specialty. If they had to demonstrate significant improvement in their chosen specialties and that they have achieved a high level of competency with another series of practical tests for MSD then it would be worth something and the persons holding it could hold their head up high as well as it being respected by the community.

The reason I feel so strongly is that I feel that the individuals themselves have been sold short by the system - Sold a lie if you like