Master.........Really?

[packrat12]

You have an interesting view of the world, concentrating on the lowest performing physicians and pilots. The majority are well above this minimum standard. You might benefit from a more optimistic view. The same is true for Master Diver, I did nitrox (when it still required classroom and 2 dives), deep, dpv, navigation, and search & rescue, perhaps not the most challenging, but not push overs. MSDs have more training than the majority of scuba divers, many also have more experience. I see no good reason to ridicule these divers.

Blame agencies like PADI. When the minimum requirements in terms of the number of dives for Master Diver can nearly met by the training alone, it does not make a diver a "Master Diver". One would expect that someone holding a certificate "Master Diver" would be an expert, not a diver with a minimum of 50 dives and 8 or so certs. If PADI had set much higher minimums then gained from training alone, i.e. 200 dives, we might be able to say that a diver is a 'Master Diver'.

Certifications are a minimum, not a maximum. The military version of Master Diver is the top of the pinnacle. PADI Master Diver is someone who took a bunch of specialty courses.

My whole family is at the rescue level diver because I do agree with the training. Simply put, it does not mean the diver has learned skills and experience. That is gained from diving, and personally not through trained diving. It is much different to be responsible for yourself vs under training.

Yes Stuartv, Master Diver should be the top 10% of recreational divers and not within reach of a vacation diver. With the required training to meet Master Diver, I may not even need to go on dives where I am not under instruction. That is not a Master diver, that is a full time student. Master Diver should be difficult to reach and a target to aim for, similar to the Abe Davis or Sheck Exley awards in cave diving which require numerous documented dives within skill level. I do not cave dive and do not intend to so this would not apply to me anyway. Because it is too easy, it has diminished value. I could technically do it in a couple of weeks, having not set foot into the water before. That does not make it an achievement but rather a very minimal recognition.

Scubadada - As for concentrating on the lowest performing... My daughter needed multiple specialized surgeries over a couple of years. Seeing that you are a physician, would you have taken a doctor fresh out of med school (even near the top of the class) to do your daughters or would you have found someone with years of successful experience? I know what I did, and yes he was a very good combat surgeon near the top of his game with years of experience treating what my daughter had. If you hold a Master Diver certificate up to me, the only thing I CAN judge is the minimum to get it, Rescue, 5 specialties and min 50 dives. My 16yr daughter has a heck of a lot more dives than that. Most people in SF that you encounter have at least that.

 

[TMHeimer]

Agree. It's a status symbol for some (unless you're one of those NAVY MSDs). Cave divers may disagree, I don't know. Then there is the OW diver with 1,000 dives who is better than some pros. It is what it is.

 

[stuartv]

When the minimum requirements in terms of the number of dives for Master Diver can nearly met by the training alone...

I think there are some full specialty certs that may require 4 training dives but most are less. Even if someone found Rescue and 4 other specialties that all required 4 training dives, those 5 specialties plus the original 4 OW dives is still only 24 dives, out of 50 required...

You said MSDs should be in the top 10%. We've already established that certifications are a measure of training received, not skill. So an MSD certification would represent being one of the most highly trained divers. It wouldn't say anything about the level of skill.

Do you think the MSDs that are out there represent more than 10% of all Recreational divers? If not, then doesn't that mean MSD is actually an appropriate name and certification?

 

[100days-a-year]

The basis of my inference to Barnum is that excepting rescue(which any competent diver should be capable of with or without a card)none of those certs are outside the realm of everyday diving done by countless divers without the cert or need for formal instruction.In fact many were covered in OW or AOW classes to begin with or were when I was certified.

The whole process reeks.The idea that 50 dives and a few commonplace dive experiences qualify as "mastering" anything is farcical.To the point of ridiculousness frankly,ask participants for other sports which are gear and environment oriented ie;kayaking,mountain climbing,skydiving etc...if they consider someone with the experience one can gain in month worthy of "master" recognition.

I contend it is simply an ego-feeding proposition for the attainers of this coveted merit badge and cash cow for the agencies.And I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary based on meeting and diving with some of these high achievers as well as the defenses they post on the internet.Then again maybe my standards of excellence are too high or my need for recognition too low.

 

[TMHeimer]

I was wondering how many non course dives would also be needed and Stuart answered that. I would assume there are quite a few MSDs who have way more than 24 "extra" dives. For whatever that's worth. It's just a title, and I think what it means varies a lot from diver to diver regarding experience. Some have pointed out that there are people with tons of dives who suck, MSD or not.

 

[scubadada]

Deja vu, some divers think MSD is fine, some don't. Aside from my SDI solo cert, I've not done any training for a dozen years, I just go diving

 

[100days-a-year]

Yep,6000+ dives since my last class (Tri-mix) in 1999.I only have 4 actual dive certs PADI OW,SSI Nitrox,IANTD Tech and Tri-Mix.

Some of the guys I dive with only have 1 (OW) and are some of most accomplished divers I know.I get it though,I was a Boy Scout and the merit badge sash was one of my motivators for staying in.

 

[lv2dive]

I personally don't get all the angst around the "master" scuba diver designation. It is just that... A designation, or a label, made up by dive agencies, to help market additional classes. If people think they have truly mastered diving after x number of dives with an instructor, they have deeper issues that none of us (except those who are therapists IRL) are going to be able to help with .

As to the value of the training, hey, everyone learns differently. While I totally agree there is no substitute for experience, some people do get more out of focused attention over a few days than others. I have a ongoing conversation with a close dive buddy about this - he thinks I take more training than needed (I disagree - my last class was a crossover to another CCR unit maybe 18 months ago? But I've been considering another class recently which has brought up this topic again).

In general, I think everyone has different learning styles and some people do well with focused attention in a training setting vs figuring out their "opportunities" on their own. It's just different ranges on a scale, if that makes sense. But I also believe one can not begin to master what s/he has learned, until that training is applied on a regular basis in the real world.

 

[TMHeimer]

katepnatl describes it to a T (not that that hasn't been done before on these Master threads).

 

[DiverDownD3]

I have been following this thread for awhile now and I've found it pretty interesting. I've been trying to figure out how to convey my thoughts and katepnatl nailed it. I'm 1 dive away from my AOW certification. Do I think I'm an advanced diver? No, far from it. I like to think a majority of divers can self evaluate their skills and recognize they may not be advanced or master as the certification title may suggest