Master Diver

[gangrel441]

Likewise, I think your position is reasonable, and I think the biggest difference in our positions might stem from our having different expectations of charter crew. The bulk of my charter diving is done locally, and aside from a brief topside briefing, I don't expect anyone on the crew to lead or guide my dive. I pay for a taxi ride to the dive sites (and possibly a snack or some help getting back on board in choppy conditions), and as such, I don't feel much need to give anyone a "snapshot" of my experience. I'm used to asking a crewmember for help when I need it, and being left to my own devices otherwise. If I were obviously struggling to set up my gear, strapping the tank in backwards and having to reposition it when I realized I screwed up, acting nervous, not listening, or things like that, I might expect something different.

At the same time, when I dive on vacation, it's been my experience that DMs can tell that I'm used to diving without hand-holding by the way I set up and check out my gear, the way I go through pre-dive with buddies, and other more subtle indicators of experience. Without showing any particularly interesting credentials, I've had several DMs turn to me as someone who could help them, rather than someone needing help.

To paraphrase one request I was happy to comply with, "Would you mind going down and telling those guys to wait for me by that big coral head while I help this woman get her weight belt on?"

My wife and I do not need hand-holding, and have had many similar experiiences in terms of carrying ourselves well as divers. We have also had less experienced divers approach us to ask how we perform some tasks underwater, such as hovering techniques and holding safety stops without the hang bar. Occasionally we offer a few tips, but since we are not instructors, we most often refer these divers to on-duty instructors within our group.

PADI EANx and/or rescue if that's adequate, otherwise IANTD recreational trimix.

I can see that. An earlier poster mentioned that he would never show Rescue. I believe showing rescue is in line with why I would show a MSD with EANx.

Again, there's the rub... I'm not accustomed to diving with a guide at all. I'm used to the captain giving a briefing along the lines of "We're tied off to a mooring on the bow of the wreck, and it looks like there might be some current down there. She's pretty well broken up, but if you head north you should find the stern semi-intact. "The pool's open", so hop in as soon as you guys are ready. The vis should be okay, but it was less than 5' on wednesday."

Oh, I have done plenty of "pool's open" dives, and have no problem with this. I have, however, been with plenty of operations where this is not how they run their dives. If part of their dive breifing is "everyone stick together and follow me," then my wife and I dive as a buddy group and do our thing on the dive, keeping aware of where the group is going and staying within a reasonable distance. When in an unfamiliar location, we may even stay quite close to the guide because he may point out some local critters which we could otherwise have missed. Then we know how to find them on subsequent dives. All I am saying is that when in that environment, we are more likely to be left alone by the guide (I say guide because DM is not always the appropriate term) so we can do our own thing and still be withing the parameters of the dive plan. He can babysit the less experienced divers, we'll be over there checking out that sponge with the arrow crab and the brittle stars in it.

If your boat crew is doing something analogous to giving a lesson, I suppose having something analogous to belt would be useful. Of course, if you had two students out of uniform, and one was in top physical condition, attentive, respectful, graceful, and quiet, and the other was out of shape, loudly bragging about how much butt he can kick, and clumsily playing with a set of official ninja-brand throwing stars, you'd know without seeing their belts which one is more likely an accomplished martial artist, right?

Very plausable, and happens often. Point, however, was that if even a few of them are wearing uniforms and belts, it narrows the amount of guesswork I have to do. I am just trying to make it easier on the guide.

 

[MSilvia]

My wife and I do not need hand-holding

I didn't mean to imply that you did, only that in my limited experience with guided dives, it hasn't been at all difficult to see which divers need extra attention and which don't.

I believe showing rescue is in line with why I would show a MSD with EANx.

I'm not sure I agree. I show rescue instead of MSD with EANx because I think that for me, getting MSD with EANx would be a waste money.

Point, however, was that if even a few of them are wearing uniforms and belts, it narrows the amount of guesswork I have to do. I am just trying to make it easier on the guide.

I don't see anything at all wrong with that, and I think it's very generous of you to spend your money on a card that's good for little else but making someone else's job easier. If you feel having the card means your guide will have significantly less task load as a result of not having to think about how much attention you need, and that that translates to a safer and more enjoyable dive, it's worth it.

I do the vast majority of my diving at home, and so don't need a guide for most of my dives. Even when diving on vacation, I avoid "cattle boats" like the plague, so when I do have one they're usually guiding no more than 4-6 divers.
I'm personally not willing to pay for a card to make life easier on somone else on what probably works out to 2% of my dives, when I'm not really convinced it makes much difference even in those cases.

 

[gangrel441]

I'm not sure I agree. I show rescue instead of MSD with EANx because I think that for me, getting MSD with EANx would be a waste money.

I don't see anything at all wrong with that, and I think it's very generous of you to spend your money on a card that's good for little else but making someone else's job easier. If you feel having the card means your guide will have significantly less task load as a result of not having to think about how much attention you need, and that that translates to a safer and more enjoyable dive, it's worth it.

I do the vast majority of my diving at home, and so don't need a guide for most of my dives. Even when diving on vacation, I avoid "cattle boats" like the plague, so when I do have one they're usually guiding no more than 4-6 divers.
I'm personally not willing to pay for a card to make life easier on somone else on what probably works out to 2% of my dives, when I'm not really convinced it makes much difference even in those cases.

Ahh....and now we get to where we can see eye to eye. Living in Boston, you have some pretty good diving opportunities all around. I live in Chicago. Quarries don't excite me too much, Charters on Lake Michigan are available, but not abundant, and while Lake diving is fun, the salt water is what keeps me comming back for more. Therefore, a good chunk of my diving is vacation diving, with one or two charter ops here who know me by name.

I also don't see $35 as a huge one-time investment to make many other people's lives a litte bit easier. Just chalk it up to my generous nature. I can understand your stance as well, it's just not mine.

We do avoid cattle boats when possible (I believe we have only been on one to date), and after our first this summer, we are quite enamored at the moment with liveaboards.

Establishing the value of MSD is secondary at this point. I am just trying to get the point across that MSD holder does not necessarily equal card collector. Unless I am mistaken, I think we have gotten to where we can agree on that.

 

[MSilvia]

Establishing the value of MSD is secondary at this point. I am just trying to get the point across that MSD holder does not necessarily equal card collector. Unless I am mistaken, I think we have gotten to where we can agree on that.

I think you have a vaild point that having an MSD card does not necessarily make one a card collector, but at the same time I think you'll agree that having one doesn't make a person a better diver than they'd be without it.

Wow... concensus. You don't see that here every day!

 

[gangrel441]

I think you have a vaild point that having an MSD card does not necessarily make one a card collector, but at the same time I think you'll agree that having one doesn't make a person a better diver than they'd be without it.

Wow... concensus. You don't see that here every day!

Look at that! Agreed on all points! :bandsmlz:

 

[durian]

when you were in the Boy Scouts, did you wear all of your merit badges? When you were in the military, did you wear all your ribbons? When you apply for a new position, do you show all your diplomas?????

 

[gangrel441]

Point:

when you were in the Boy Scouts, did you wear all of your merit badges? When you were in the military, did you wear all your ribbons? When you apply for a new position, do you show all your diplomas?????

Counterpoint:

When I entered my MBA program, I didn't just go through and pick a few classes I wanted to take here and there. I took the courses that were outlined in the program. When I completed that coursework, I didn't just cease going to classes and go my own way. I payed the $50 fee for the university to verify my transcripts and confer the degree. When I apply for a job, I don't tell the potential employer, "Well, I studied some economics, and some accounting, and some statistics..." I tell them that I hold a MBA. Believe me, that makes a difference.

 

[durian]

When I was in the Boy Scouts, I did wear all my merit badges. In the Army I was required to wear all my ribbons and when I apply for a position, I do produce diplomas and transcripts. What I am getting at is that we are conditioned to document the mile stones along the way. Also, I do feel good when I look at my diplomas. It reminds me of all the hours of study, research, writing papers, reading, lectures, etc, etc. To each his own.

 

[gangrel441]

When I was in the Boy Scouts, I did wear all my merit badges. In the Army I was required to wear all my ribbons and when I apply for a position, I do produce diplomas and transcripts. What I am getting at is that we are conditioned to document the mile stones along the way. Also, I do feel good when I look at my diplomas. It reminds me of all the hours of study, research, writing papers, reading, lectures, etc, etc. To each his own.

I think we were arguing the same point and didn't know it. I apologize...I was taking on your first post as though it were laced with sarcasm. Apparently, I was wrong.

 

[durian]

I have PADI Rescue, so I could get into the NAUI MAster Diver Course correct. It sounds like some of it can be done at home if it is internet researched based?