Master Diver

[Ber Rabbit]

I have to disagree with you on multi-agency training. If it is done for no reason other than collecting cards, I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, if it is done to gain perspective on differing theories and philosophies when it comes to diving, I believe this could be highly valuable. Don't believe me? Do a search on DIR. Personally, I would prefer to understand GUE's, IANTD's, and TDI's viewpoints on staged deco, then make up my own mind on which I have faith in. The hell with the cards, tell me what you do and let me decide!

I guess that didn't come out quite right, there's nothing wrong with multi-agency training. It's a good idea for students to get a chance to learn from different instructors and to see different philosophies. The instructor does make the difference in a lot of classes and some philosophies are more appealing than others to different divers.

The intended meaning of my post was for a diver who simply wants every card from every agency (OW, AOW, specialties, AI, DM, etc) but doesn't actually go out and do any diving unless they are taking a class. I happen to have a diver who is rescue certified through PADI, is now an SSI Instructor with a cert to teach Rescue who is trying to bully me into teaching a NAUI rescue class so they can get that card :11: I don't take well to being bullied This diver has never done any "fun" dives and I know that for a fact.

I have the DIR fundamentals book and have incorporated some of their stuff into my AOW class, it's good stuff. I have taken advice from divers and instructors on the board from many different agencies and used it to make my classes better.

Hope this clears up what I meant
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[narcT]

I was pointing out the facts relating to the differences between the NAUI vs. PADI MD programs. I assume having read the thread you are aware of the differences in the programs as well. What is your point?

--Matt

Sounds like I made my point :14:

 

[Aquatic Eagle]

Rescue doesn't give the diver any added responsibility, just training. As for instructors/DMs...if they don't want to accept the responsibilities that come with going pro, not really sure why they went that route in the first place...

We aren't afraid of accepting the responsibilities that come with being a professional...we just don't like getting stuck babysitting someone when we're on vacation. We like doing normal, relaxing dives like everyone else and I know that when I have tried to go on a normal dive as just a diver and not an instructor, the divemaster has tried to put his/her responsibilities off on me instead of doing their job. I have no problem helping here and there but if the divemaster just wants to pass the buck (their job) to someone who is trying to relax and enjoy themselves, that's where the line should be drawn. I would never put my job responsiblities on one of my guests whether they are qualified for it or not. Everyone deserves a little time on their own.

 

[StSomewhere]

As far as the PADI MSD is concerned, I'd agree with the others that if you are going to the cost and effort of getting five specialties, you ought to go out of your way to make sure they were worthwhile specialties to you and that the instructor had something to offer, beyond what you can read in the book.

For instance. Night diving from a PSD or wreck diving instructor or someone else who can provide insight into low-vis/no-vis diving. Or for Cavern, hopefully an instructor who dives caves regularly and understands what struggles you will have when you first try running lines without completely tangling yourself up in knots. Whatever you do, don't take a course from anyone who won't get in the water. (Hey, it happens!) And don't take PPB from someone who doesn't dive horizontal without mucking up the vis.

FWIW, although they take great pains to obscure this on their website, the PADI MSD only requires the 5 specialties be from PADI, the OW/AOW/Rescue can from any agency.

 

[gangrel441]

We aren't afraid of accepting the responsibilities that come with being a professional...we just don't like getting stuck babysitting someone when we're on vacation. We like doing normal, relaxing dives like everyone else and I know that when I have tried to go on a normal dive as just a diver and not an instructor, the divemaster has tried to put his/her responsibilities off on me instead of doing their job. I have no problem helping here and there but if the divemaster just wants to pass the buck (their job) to someone who is trying to relax and enjoy themselves, that's where the line should be drawn. I would never put my job responsiblities on one of my guests whether they are qualified for it or not. Everyone deserves a little time on their own.

I don't believe I used the word "afraid", and if I did, it is not exactly what I meant.

Tell me this...if you hold a DM card, does this obligate you to help under the circumstances above, or is it just a matter of the DM on board applying pressure to get you to help?

 

[MSilvia]

But you have never encountered a situation where it may be valuable to convey the assurance to a captain/dive guide that you have received this training voluntarily? Not to impress them, but to let them know that they can concentrate more of their attention on other divers?

No, I haven't ever felt a need to convey that kind of assurance... at least not with a card. I believe experience speaks for itself in ways a card can't, and that things like being able to set up your own gear as though you've done it every week for years, engaging the crew in conversation, listening to briefings, knowing your way around a boat, knowing your weighting, and things like that say far more about how much skill and experience a diver has than a card ever could.

If I ever felt the need to show evidence of experience, I'd hand them a log book instead. I don't think evidence of 50 dives is necessarily evidence of being a good diver.

 

[WaterDawg]

Matt,

I know what you mean about experiance and the way others precive you. The truth is that you can "talk the talk" but if you cant perform its all for nothing. But your ideas were formed in part by the crowd you dive w/ and gangrel441's also although I bet his shop minght have something to do with it as by the looks of his profile they sold him on Boat Diver, Fish ID, Creature ID, Nat Geo Diver.

I now soo many folks who feel like they need to tell me that they are a DM not once but many times. I dont know why, I usually have a good amount more dives than they do. As w/ most PADI classes all it tells me is "I coughed up the cash and payed for some mediocre training, that does little for my actual skills"

 

[in_cavediver]

I don't believe I used the word "afraid", and if I did, it is not exactly what I meant.

Tell me this...if you hold a DM card, does this obligate you to help under the circumstances above, or is it just a matter of the DM on board applying pressure to get you to help?

I currently hold a DM card, (lapsed) and I can tell you this. If I pay for a charter dive, I will do the dive I intended/planned to do. If I am not being paid to work, then I expect to be just another diver. In the case mentioned, I would be paying to be there. There is NO duty of care or obligation here.

If there was an accident, a stronger arguement would be made for a proper duty of care in how I responed. Much like an off duty EMT witnessing a car crash. If possible, they are expected to respond.

 

[gangrel441]

I currently hold a DM card, (lapsed) and I can tell you this. If I pay for a charter dive, I will do the dive I intended/planned to do. If I am not being paid to work, then I expect to be just another diver. In the case mentioned, I would be paying to be there. There is NO duty of care or obligation here.

I think we have all collectively wandered a bit off topic here, but to continue the thought, I completely understand how you feel, and I think that is completely reasonable. Closer to topic, what card do you show when you are paying to dive?

Not really sure why the discussion has gone this direction, since MSD and Rescue have no duty of care to begin with, not being pro certs. My only point earlier was showing a MSD card so the guide may have a better idea of who to direct more of his energy and effort towards.

To use an analogy, it is a similar situation I see in martial arts. Can any of you tell me what belts are used for in martial arts training? The answer, contrary to what you may hear from a lot of practitioners, is so an instructor can take a quick glance at the room and know who should be able to handle what lesson. It is not to show the student what his level of skill is, it is not to determine who holds rank on others in the room. If I as instructor look around the room and see a couple of blue belts, an orange, two yellows, and 5 purples, I should be able to tell how the class needs to be divided, what excercises each group could work on, and who can be put in front of those groups to oversee them.

MSD. Specialties - various conditions. Rescue - mainly self-rescue and buddy rescue. 50+ dives logged - familiar with being in the water. Now I have a snap shot of the diver's experience. Is it a complete picture? No, but it is a snap shot.

 

[MSilvia]

I completely understand how you feel, and I think that is completely reasonable.

Likewise, I think your position is reasonable, and I think the biggest difference in our positions might stem from our having different expectations of charter crew. The bulk of my charter diving is done locally, and aside from a brief topside briefing, I don't expect anyone on the crew to lead or guide my dive. I pay for a taxi ride to the dive sites (and possibly a snack or some help getting back on board in choppy conditions), and as such, I don't feel much need to give anyone a "snapshot" of my experience. I'm used to asking a crewmember for help when I need it, and being left to my own devices otherwise. If I were obviously struggling to set up my gear, strapping the tank in backwards and having to reposition it when I realized I screwed up, acting nervous, not listening, or things like that, I might expect something different.

At the same time, when I dive on vacation, it's been my experience that DMs can tell that I'm used to diving without hand-holding by the way I set up and check out my gear, the way I go through pre-dive with buddies, and other more subtle indicators of experience. Without showing any particularly interesting credentials, I've had several DMs turn to me as someone who could help them, rather than someone needing help.

To paraphrase one request I was happy to comply with, "Would you mind going down and telling those guys to wait for me by that big coral head while I help this woman get her weight belt on?"

Closer to topic, what card do you show when you are paying to dive?

PADI EANx and/or rescue if that's adequate, otherwise IANTD recreational trimix.

My only point earlier was showing a MSD card so the guide may have a better idea of who to direct more of his energy and effort towards.

Again, there's the rub... I'm not accustomed to diving with a guide at all. I'm used to the captain giving a briefing along the lines of "We're tied off to a mooring on the bow of the wreck, and it looks like there might be some current down there. She's pretty well broken up, but if you head north you should find the stern semi-intact. "The pool's open", so hop in as soon as you guys are ready. The vis should be okay, but it was less than 5' on wednesday."

To use an analogy, it is a similar situation I see in martial arts. ...belts are used ... in martial arts training ...so an instructor can take a quick glance at the room and know who should be able to handle what lesson.

If your boat crew is doing something analogous to giving a lesson, I suppose having something analogous to belt would be useful. Of course, if you had two students out of uniform, and one was in top physical condition, attentive, respectful, graceful, and quiet, and the other was out of shape, loudly bragging about how much butt he can kick, and clumsily playing with a set of official ninja-brand throwing stars, you'd know without seeing their belts which one is more likely an accomplished martial artist, right?