MARP Price Fixing Update - Consumers Win!

[Slonda828]

Since you're most likely already certified and own your own stuff, what it will do for you personally, is nothing.

However what it means to new divers is that training will be more expensive, more difficult to find and probably even shorter and crappier.

Terry

I think what you mean Terry is that people like you who work for dive shops will be forced to provide even shorter and crappier training. People like me, who do not work for a dive shop, and chose to be independent will be held to no such level of either shortness or crappiness. Then again, our prices on training divers already beats most LDS...which is why new divers who know the difference come to independents in the first place.

Leisure pro and independents beat most LDS gear and instruction prices (though this is not always the case). Sure, you'll still get the uninformed or the excessively loyal, but those people either know the staff or probably want someone to teach them underwater naturalist or boat diving anyway :sigh:

 

[mark00020]

Reading half the doomsday predictions on here is just ridiculous. Like if MARP disappears all the LDSs will follow. Scuba equipment is something that requires maintenance, proper fitment and training, and a store front. Look at the motorcycle industry, not the TV electronics industry. To have the scuba manufacturers playing both sides (which is blatantly obvious to a casual observer, look at LP's product line) and penalizing both (no warranty for online, price fixing for LDS) is totally wrong.
Another thing that is wrong is competing dive shop employees or owners arguing or insulting each other, in some ploy to generate business in an online forum. I've worked at many reputable businesses and was ordered NEVER to openly insult a competitor, if you want to beat them do it the honorable way. In reading this post I've lost a lot of respect for people that I had respected before. Take a second to think about what that does to your business (I'm not local, but I'm sure some people are local to your little fight.)

 

[redacted]

Since you're most likely already certified and own your own stuff, what it will do for you personally, is nothing.

However what it means to new divers is that training will be more expensive, more difficult to find and probably even shorter and crappier.

Terry

Terry

I don't know where you come up with this. One of the problems with scuba training is the supply of "qualified instructor" far exceeds the demand. So, shops which are still the focal point of scuba training have the instructors by the .... But there are still a few independent instructors around and a reduction in the number of shops should increase their population. Strangely enough, these instructors seem to compete quite effectively with shops - go figure.

Independent instructors can't make it on expensive, short, crappy training.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Reading half the doomsday predictions on here is just ridiculous. Like if MARP disappears all the LDSs will follow.

If your talking about my posts, your confusing MAP and MARP. I agree that MARP is stupid and have said it in almost EVERY post. But if MAP goes, prices will fall due to price wars. It has happened on certain items even this winter. The big guys will not be beat, and keep lowering their price, then the product is $5 over cost when it was $145. This WOULD happen to almost all products.

Every once in a while, a manufacturer loses control of an item, the big guys degrade the price to nothing....causes lots of problems for all except the consumer. Eventually the pricing get restored, but without MAP policies, NOT MARP, this will happen to all, and it will eventually put the local stores out of business and a chain reaction could happen

 

[mark00020]

I'm talking about MOST of the posts, not one single poster's posts, and I mean MARP not MAP.

I've got to say my my experience buying scuba gear, I started out buying used, then I went to leisure pro, and now that I've found an excellent dive shop that lets you do things like pay 50% of the cost of a large piece of gear or package and start diving it that day, and has a 60 day "good condition" return policy so I can actually try gear out and if I don't like it take it back... I've moved to making most of my purchases at the dive shop. But, if the owner of the dive shop I like was on here bashing everyone else to make a quick buck I would go somewhere else. I am not supporting the dive shop, this isn't charity and I don't have the money to pay for someone else's house/car/dive travel. I would not give them my business if they weren't offering me something I value, which is all the service on the back end.
One note, I've never purchased anything from a manufacturer with a MARP, and I haven't been charged FULL retail yet, but I do pay a little more than LP sells things for.

 

[offthewall1]

How about allowing sales on a couple items for 2-3 days only a month? Allowing your hands to NOT always be tied, but to not permanently be so low it hurts all....how about they make some sales on products every once in awhile to help you move inventory? A scheduled sale(these do happen) that the sale is another MAP price so all are on the same pace and have can have the same promo? Funny thing is not all will participate, they never do!

I have floated this idea to many manufacturers already. They refuse to do it.

What they do is tell dealers they are discounting products to us to increase our profit margins... but disallow us to pass the savings on to consumers. Uneducated dealers have bought into this philosophy over the years - and that is why many dealers have age old inventory sitting in their store. The deals come on products nobody wants... which is why the manufacturers offer discounts on them... to move them out of their inventory and into the inventory of the duped retailers.

I would fully support weekly or monthly deals passed from manufacturer to dealer to consumer. This is a great idea... but one that manufactures continue to stonewall... because it still puts their old boy network at a disadvantage. Most of the old guard doesn't have the funds to advertise - because they don't have any customers.

The internet age... not just the internet sellers have provided divers boards such as this where they can educate themselves before dropping dime... that to is a big part of the demise of the LDS...

It's a cycle that sees no end.

 

[redacted]

Good point Awap, but I would like someone to explain to me (in this particular case) how.

I still have trouble wrapping my brain around why scuba gear is advertised for a soft price, like a car. People have compared scuba to electronics, but when was the last time you haggled over the price of a TV? I think that this concept of competition is a key issue for most of us who are not affiliated with an LDS. I buy gear where I can get the best deal. If that means I buy from LP, then that's where I go. If they do not carry a factory warranty, then they warranty the item themselves. If a dive shop cannot, or will not compete, than I will buy online. If they can, or will compete, than I'll buy from them. If this policy makes it easier for me to shop, than that is great. If it drives a bunch of LDS out of business, who cares. If they all close I'll just buy a compressor, and it does not change my bottom line on a finite enough time line. Some LDS closing will not affect the price of gear on leisurepro or Ebay. I think it's nice to argue what this will do for the industry (which I care little about), but what will this do for me as a consumer? That's what many of us would like to know.

A limited scuba related example: Oceanic Gt3 W- Cdx5 D.V.T With Dry Valve Technology FREE SHIPPING Scuba Gear - Compare Prices and Buy at PriceGrabber

And a better example from a somewhat less regulated market: Leatherman Wave And Leather Sheath - Compare Prices and Buy at PriceGrabber

As to LDS prices - As I see it, the business model is designed to take advantage of the dependence and lack of knowledge of new divers. Newly trained divers still think they are getting a good deal when they get 10% off a package of the shops choosing even when the sticker price has be marked up 15% over MSRP.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

A
As to LDS prices - As I see it, the business model is designed to take advantage of the dependence and lack of knowledge of new divers. Newly trained divers still think they are getting a good deal when they get 10% off a package of the shops choosing even when the sticker price has be marked up 15% over MSRP.

Some, not all. Awap, you and I, and alot of others on here, have been in these type of threads for awhile. There are dive shops that do this, that need to change, or should slowly be worked out.....but there are many shops that do not do this and thrive....its too bad they are the minority, and not the majority. But economic times like these, WILL weed out the bad ones, as they get no support from those they burned.

I actually had someone in yesterday from another shop, going thru classes, that wants equipment. that shop does offer 10% off to students....there pricing is already high, and the sales person didnt listent to what he wanted. Came to us and is getting what he wants, at a better price....and he is happy. He even said a couple time he was glad he came in.

Some LDS mentalities are just unreal, but support the ones that support you and the good ones will prevail

PS- that means buy everything from me

 

[offthewall1]

However, I was intrigued by your statement that you promote service to your customers as well as top notch training. So I would like to get your read on value of quality instruction and what it should be worth? There have been countless threads about cheap courses and the detriment this is causing to diving in general. Since you are advocating a low(er) margin, high(er) volume equipment model then do you a) advocate for the same in training structure, b) if not "a" then why should training be different then equipment? I guess I am asking in a round about way is, is your business model based on exploiting stores that use equipment sales to subsidize courses or is there another component that I'm not seeing?

One must go no further than our website to see what we promote as far as training. Our prices are even listed.

Our students (each and every one that walks in the door) receives a very personalized service... unlike anything I lived working in other shops. Our students are not lumped into classes of 8 or 10 or 12 or more. Each student, couple or family is assigned their own personal Instructor. Our customers can schedule private shopping time before during or after hours.

What is this worth? Probably more than we charge for it. It is a value created for our customers. We're not the lowest price on training in our area - and we're not the highest priced.

Our educational business plan is far different than our equipment sales plan. I'll explain why.

We believe in creating a higher quality diver... one who actually goes diving. Not a diver mill. We believe that creating opportunity for more people through fairly priced - exceptionally valued education, these smaller numbers will buy more equipment, tell more friends and family and grow the sport. It works... and has been working.

Our divers are more comfortable, more confident, more aware and equipped with quality equipment at a better price. It doesn't get any better than that.

I challenge you to find one post by a customer that has done business with us on this board or any other that has a negative word to say. The only people bad mouthing us are our competitors and those that don't do business with us. Once you do, you gain a whole new perspective.

Thanks for the question - Cheers

 

[Web Monkey]

I think what you mean Terry is that people like you who work for dive shops will be forced to provide even shorter and crappier training. People like me, who do not work for a dive shop, and chose to be independent will be held to no such level of either shortness or crappiness.

Since you don't know squat about me or the shop I work with, I'd prefer you didn't speak for me or the shop. We teach 7 - 8 week college and local classes, have done so since the 1950's, and will continue to do so.

Then again, our prices on training divers already beats most LDS...

That's facinating, but try as you might, you can't violate the laws of finance. Time (pool time and class time) costs money. If you're cheaper, one or both is getting cut or the shop is losing money.

Terry