MARP Price Fixing Update - Consumers Win!

[CDNScubaMoose]

Off the wall - I must admit that I would be leary about doing business with you. Not saying that I would since the geographical distance is a hinderance if my opinion. My concern is with how you mix the the facts regarding economic theories. I believe at one point you claimed that MARP was "communist" but in my books, government interference in dictating which specific business models are allowed to exist sounds a lot more like communism to me then the free market you are claiming you want. So I get the feeling you might not completely understand what you are saying and in fact may be trying to grind an axe with these companies (whichever ones they are) and trying to disguise it. So in my opinion you are getting close to the line of BS'ing your customers and trying to pull the wool over their eyes. Not saying this is the case - just pointing out that this is how my opinion is starting to form.

However, I was intrigued by your statement that you promote service to your customers as well as top notch training. So I would like to get your read on value of quality instruction and what it should be worth? There have been countless threads about cheap courses and the detriment this is causing to diving in general. Since you are advocating a low(er) margin, high(er) volume equipment model then do you a) advocate for the same in training structure, b) if not "a" then why should training be different then equipment? I guess I am asking in a round about way is, is your business model based on exploiting stores that use equipment sales to subsidize courses or is there another component that I'm not seeing?

 

[Web Monkey]

I could grow my business 10 fold overnight if I could actively advertise my pricing. I suspect that all the other shops in my area could do the same. If they had any sense, they'd fight for these changes with me... then we could co-op advertise (as the Be A Diver campaign intended) only we could advertise our classes - and our equipment at OUR prices... and let the people decide where to go.

You're couple of a decades late and a clue short.

Before stirring up the mud (silt?) you should have taken a look at consumer electronics and appliances in the 80's. MARP, MAP and tight control of the distribution network were the only things that kept local electronics and appliance retailers alive.

What will actually happen if you manage to remove the floor from retail SCUBA pricing is that large Internet businesses (large like Wal-Mart's web site, not SCUBA Toys) will own the market, and the remaining shops will just sell classes, air fills and maybe a few accessories. Except that classes and air will now cost what they actually should, so there will be a lot fewer new divers.

"Your" equipment prices will be irrelevant because there will always be someone, somewhere willing to sell cheaper. Congratulations. You just killed yourself.

Terry

 

[shoredivr]

How Offthewallscuba1 is coming across so far:

Can't answer straightforward questions...does this extend to customer advice in the shop, too?
Calls ex-suppliers bastards online
Belittles competitors
Throws politics into longwinded and convoluted replies
Opposes government oversight/regulation yet goes to government agencies for help

Given the thread so far, all my instincts say shop elsewhere.

Dunno, Off, you're digging an online hole and yet you just keep on digging.

 

[redacted]

Sorry to burst your balloon, but dealers don't maintain pricing because they're required by the manufacturer, they do it because they need to make money to stay in business.

In any case, it's self limiting. Even with MAP/MARP, it's extremely difficult to make a living selling SCUBA equipment. Any drop in profit (cause by a drop in prices) will pretty much ensure that the shop will soon be Out of Business.

I think what it will do is make Maryland the Big Black Hole of top-shelf SCUBA equipment, without a single dealer for products that traditionally maintained MARP, so if you live in Maryland and your favorite brand vanishes, you know who to thank.

Terry

Or, perhaps it will be like the days when MD alcohol tax was quite low and folks came from hundreds of miles out of state to stock up.

A couple things are quite clear. Competition tends to benefit the consumer. MARP and MAP are anti-competitive and prohibited by many countries' consumer protection laws. OTOH, shops that do not choose to let MAP and MARP limit their sales have many options to get around them. I do agree that most like/need the protection they provide and do not want to lose that protection.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

A couple things are quite clear. Competition tends to benefit the consumer. MARP and MAP are anti-competitive and prohibited by many countries' consumer protection laws. OTOH, shops that do not choose to let MAP and MARP limit their sales have many options to get around them. I do agree that most like/need the protection they provide and do not want to lose that protection.

I disagree that MARP and MAP are anticompetitive. If it allows more shops to continue to exist and forces them to find other unique ways to be competitive (say, service & knowledge & training - :shocked2. Then that is beneficial to the diving community ... at least for the segment that isn't interested in only getting the best deal on their equipment but also on the other aspects that make for better diving.

 

[Slonda828]

Competition tends to benefit the consumer.

Good point Awap, but I would like someone to explain to me (in this particular case) how.

I still have trouble wrapping my brain around why scuba gear is advertised for a soft price, like a car. People have compared scuba to electronics, but when was the last time you haggled over the price of a TV? I think that this concept of competition is a key issue for most of us who are not affiliated with an LDS. I buy gear where I can get the best deal. If that means I buy from LP, then that's where I go. If they do not carry a factory warranty, then they warranty the item themselves. If a dive shop cannot, or will not compete, than I will buy online. If they can, or will compete, than I'll buy from them. If this policy makes it easier for me to shop, than that is great. If it drives a bunch of LDS out of business, who cares. If they all close I'll just buy a compressor, and it does not change my bottom line on a finite enough time line. Some LDS closing will not affect the price of gear on leisurepro or Ebay. I think it's nice to argue what this will do for the industry (which I care little about), but what will this do for me as a consumer? That's what many of us would like to know.

 

[TwoBitTxn]

I've seen a few say that online retailers don't participate in MAP.

If they don't then why do you see "call for pricing" on some products. Isn't that MAP compliance?

Haven't you ever hear a radio ad where the announcer said "we can't give the price over the radio, you have to come in and see it..." Isn't that MAP compliance? I don't see MAP as bad.

 

[Web Monkey]

Good point Awap, but I would like someone to explain to me (in this particular case) how.

I still have trouble wrapping my brain around why scuba gear is advertised for a soft price, like a car. People have compared scuba to electronics, but when was the last time you haggled over the price of a TV? I think that this concept of competition is a key issue for most of us who are not affiliated with an LDS. I buy gear where I can get the best deal. If that means I buy from LP, then that's where I go. If they do not carry a factory warranty, then they warranty the item themselves. If a dive shop cannot, or will not compete, than I will buy online. If they can, or will compete, than I'll buy from them. If this policy makes it easier for me to shop, than that is great. If it drives a bunch of LDS out of business, who cares. If they all close I'll just buy a compressor, and it does not change my bottom line on a finite enough time line. Some LDS closing will not affect the price of gear on leisurepro or Ebay. I think it's nice to argue what this will do for the industry (which I care little about), but what will this do for me as a consumer? That's what many of us would like to know.

Since you're most likely already certified and own your own stuff, what it will do for you personally, is nothing.

However what it means to new divers is that training will be more expensive, more difficult to find and probably even shorter and crappier.

Terry

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Good point Awap, but I would like someone to explain to me (in this particular case) how.

I still have trouble wrapping my brain around why scuba gear is advertised for a soft price, like a car. People have compared scuba to electronics, but when was the last time you haggled over the price of a TV?

That is because you cant now. I used to go to an Electronics store an haggle pricing, hell it was fun. You cant do it now because the margins are so low, they hardly make any money on them, so the consumer is already conditioned that this is the price. You look elseware, that is still the price because they are not willing to go lower, and why would they? There are only a couple places to get that TV, so they have you, the competition is all long gone......then the prices go up, and you have NOTHING you can do....except buy refurbs from Woot

Off- So your telling me that you will now START an internet email blitz like LP or send out advertisements like Dicks Sports? If your starting what the other online guys are already doing, your behind the times and should figure that out first! I highly doubt you will send out ads as nice as dicks or anything as it costs too much and your margins are going to plummet with your new legislation, not allowing you to do such things. Your volume CANT go up because you have no way of bringing in new customers, and your still not going to gain online customers(which is obviously what you really have an issue with not getting) because they dont JUST shop on price...they use price as a tool to go where they trust and still get what they want. Price matching is nothing new, EVERY business(except stupid cable and Direct TV), price match competitiors......allowing you to retain your customers. If your having a problem growing, killing margins is not the way to stay in business....better service, offerings, attractions, keeping locals diving, etc are the ways.

Again, I think MARP is a joke, and I choose NOT to sell for those that tie my hands like that! But MAP does need to stay, or the whole industry will crumble, and a few will survive, but not much....all you will have is cheap gear from other countries at a cheap price with no product support, no place to get it serviced, long lead times, no choices/competiton.....but you will have that cheap price you wanted, for a little while until its monopolized....then whoops

The Manu. need to spend some more time policing or making a better MAP policy, not get rid of it. How about allowing sales on a couple items for 2-3 days only a month? Allowing your hands to NOT always be tied, but to not permanently be so low it hurts all....how about they make some sales on products every once in awhile to help you move inventory? A scheduled sale(these do happen) that the sale is another MAP price so all are on the same pace and have can have the same promo? Funny thing is not all will participate, they never do!

There are other options, yours will devastate this sport and raise prices in the long term....short term it will be GREAT for consumers....but look what happened to our economy right now....

 

[captain]

I was in the dive shop business in the 60's and early 70's prior to MARP and dealer agreements forced by the manufactures. I was a dealer for two of the major brands at the time. U S Divers, now known as Aqua Lung and Voit/ SwimMaster.
At the time mail order sales was the equivilant to on line sales now. I had no problem matching mail order prices and still make money. We would often have advertized tank sales at our cost as a drawing card to get customers in the shop. This is back to the future and about time.