Marketing: Are we ok, or do we need help?

[RJP]

Dive shops: When was the last time you ran some radio ads?
Dive boats: Same question.

Any idea what a radio ad costs?
Any reason you recommend radio over newspaper advertising? Or billboards?
Can you share your media analysis? What's your CPM assumption? CPP? ROI projections?
What radio format is best to reach the target audience? Talk? Sports radio? Top 40?
Any suggestion what specific station the ad should be run on? Which daypart?
How many ads should be run per day/week/month?
What is the broader media mix, or is radio supposed to work by itself?
Any idea what the message should be?
Any idea how to do the ad in a way that it will disproportionately benefit one dive shop over all the other shops in the listening area?

I think if you look into the cost of running a radio ad... you'll find that there's no reason for a dive shop or charter boat to bother worrying about the answers to the other questions. Especially if you also don't know who your audience is... or what your message is.

 

[drrich2]

RJP:

Very interesting insights into customer psychology/sociology. And it reminds me of the old Jack Nicholson line from A Few Good Men, "You can't handle the truth!" Telling a bunch of post-feminist working mothers that they're insecure and craving male approval (even specifically Dad's)... Wow.

I'm guessing marketers keep a pretty tight lid on the nuances motivating some advertising campaigns for quite awhile.

Richard.

 

[RJP]

Telling a bunch of post-feminist working mothers that they're insecure and craving male approval (even specifically Dad's)... Wow.

But that's the point.

We we didn't tell them that... they told us that.

:d

We... or rather Wilfird Brimley... simply told them that giving their kids a nutritious, hot breakfast of Quaker Oats is "the right thing to do."

 

[Hawkwood]

It is -33C outside and for some reason I had a hankering for oatmeal this morning. First time in a long time.

No desire to go diving...strong desire for oatmeal...

...hmmm....

 

[Doppler]

Any idea what a radio ad costs?
Any reason you recommend radio over newspaper advertising? Or billboards?
Can you share your media analysis? What's your CPM assumption? CPP? ROI projections?
What radio format is best to reach the target audience? Talk? Sports radio? Top 40?
Any suggestion what specific station the ad should be run on? Which daypart?
How many ads should be run per day/week/month?
What is the broader media mix, or is radio supposed to work by itself?
Any idea what the message should be?
Any idea how to do the ad in a way that it will disproportionately benefit one dive shop over all the other shops in the listening area?

I think if you look into the cost of running a radio ad... you'll find that there's no reason for a dive shop or charter boat to bother worrying about the answers to the other questions. Especially if you also don't know who your audience is... or what your message is.

You really do this **** for a living, don't you?! LOL

 

[RJP]

You really do this **** for a living, don't you?! LOL

Someone has to. It's not like tonenail fungus is gonna cure itself!

:d

 

[Wookie]

I didn't even know I HAD toenail fungus...

 

[The Chairman]

WHOA!!! When did Doppler start doing TV ads??? They dolled him up a bit, but you can tell by the smirk that it's still our Steve!

 

[Julieofthesea]

This thread makes me smile! I think I should earn a certification card for it or something. NetDoc, can you whip that up?

Now I feel responsible to respond to everyone.

Kind of. You really can't make it more convenient and making it less expensive is going to kill the host.

What I'm trying to say is you need to get people to WANT TO choose to spend the additional time and the money it takes to dive over other seemingly more comviement and perceived less expensive sports.

Suggestion:

You get the industry to locally introduce more people to the joy, wonder and excitement they can experience by diving. Imagine the feeling you had the first time you saw a fish and it saw you or when you felt weightless. You need to do this for free and the cost of this needs to be borne by certain participating manufactures and LDS. You will not get everyone to like it. But you WILL increase the base of those willing to take the next step. You incentivize them to take the next step with package discounts for the gear manufactures that supply the demo gear. These people WILL purchase from the manufactures of the gear they tried and WILL purchase some of it from the LDSs that provide expert advise as to what the new divers needs and can afford. Lowest price will not be the #1 driving concern. The LDS WILL get new trip bookings.

DEMA does this. The Be A Diver Pool Tour. They have a pool that travels around. They will set it up and let you teach Discover Scuba. If you didn't know about this, perhaps I should get DEMA to hire me to educate people the things the offer. Did you know about this? Not judging, just curious.

We will have to disagree on whether that helps the industry.

I'l take the position that someone searching on line for gear, or a trip, etc is alread "in" the market, and that simply re-directing them from one business to a different business is a net zero sum game. So at a minumum that doesn't HELP the industry at all.

I buy gas at a Mobil station I pass on the way home from work. If you build a new "Julie Gas" station a mile before the Mobil station I may stop there instead. And some other people might as well. "Julie Gas" is making more money, and Mobil is making less money, but the total number of people buying gas - and the total amount of gas sold - remains the same.
​

Plus, there's plenty of literature to support that churning customers in that way invariably leads to a spiral of price depression>greater price sensitivity>further price depression. (You essentially train an industry's customers - by encouraging, rewarding, and reinforcing the behavior of shopping on price - to kill the industry.)

If you not only build a new gas station a mile before the Mobil station, but also charge 10-cents less per gallon than the Mobil station, I will for-sure buy more gas at "Julie Gas" instead of Mobil. And a great many other people will as well. So the total number of drivers is the same, and the total amount of gas sold is the same, but the industry overall has suffered as the profit per customer and per gallon of gas has declined. Plus, within a few weeks (days? hours?) the Mobil station will drop their prices by 10-cents per gallon to match the price at "Julie Gas." So now both the Mobil station and Julie station are selling the same amount of gas, to the same number of customers, but both are now actually making LESS money overall than they were previously. And now I - and all of your other customers and all of Mobil's other customers - are keeping our eyes peeled for an even better price!

Sadly, neither of you can lower your price to the point where even one person, who doesn't currently drive, says to themselves "Wow, gas is now so cheap that I'm gonna guy buy myself a car and drive all over the place!" So, the only way for you to grow your business is to undercut Mobil - and vice-versa - hoping that you can garner enough increased sales volume to offset the declining profit margin on every gallon you sell.
​

So if you believe that taking a shrinking pool of new (and existing) customers and systematically decreasing both the absolute and marginal profit per customer is going to help the industry overall... well, you and I (along with anyone who's ever passed an economics class) will have to agree to disagree.

Again, not that there's anything wrong with what you're proposing from the standpoint of the individual business that wants to gain share and doesn't want to - and in fact isn't in a position to - help "the industry overall." But the business model is essentially that of a parasite that weakens, and eventually kills, it's host.

PS - please don't anyone say "but big oil is making more profits than ever" because the analogy above is about consumer behavior and market forces at the customer-level in a competitive market. Not about an oligopoly... and certainly not about gas.

I understand that you think simply re-directing them from one business to a different business is a net zero sum game. Really? Because your oatmeal post just made more oatmeal eaters. You've provided insight to a cool behind the scenes process, I feel a little more connected with the brand, and now everyone wants to eat more oatmeal.

Julie Gas is not only closer, they also sell growlers of my favorite hard-to-find beer. (this really just happened to me) And every time I go in there, they give me ideas on great ways to use up my gas. I had no idea there were 27 waterfalls with in driving distance! I prefer Julie Gas. I have a relationship with them. I value their service and I don't want them to go out of business. Besides, They give me the validation my father never did. (JK) I told my friends about them selling the unique beer, now she drives 5 miles out of the way to go there.

It's too bad all the customers go Julie Gas now and nobody goes to Mobil. Julie Gas found something special to offer her customers. Julie Gas customers are going on DriverBoard.com and telling all the drivers about the cool trips they learned about. Now THEY want to go on those cool trips. Now there's more drivers - and the customer base has grown.

I'm on the industry's side. My vision is less of a parasitic situation and more of a survival of the fittest. I have ways to help those that want to survive.

What part of the industry is declining, and what part is on the rise?
The scuba world is not just one big happy family anymore. It's broken up now into many categories and interests.
What part of it do people think needs to be propped up? and why?

Do we really need 15 companies making regulators?
Do we really need 9 different brands of backplates? How many tech divers are there or people using backplates in the entire population of divers?
Look how many brands and styles of BC's are out there being made and how are they all selling enough to make it worth it?

Why is it sooooo important to make sure every gear company, every dive store, every dive operator, every online store, and every resort stays in business,.... and every reef destroyer keeps diving?????

Is it just to keep the money flowing?
Is that what diving is all about now, the money?

Why does diving need a bailout. Shouldn't they be subject to the natural laws of supply and demand?
If they screwed up for whatever reason shouldn't they have to suffer the consequences? And for the ones that survive maybe there's a good lesson to be learned.

YES! Get on my boat, there's room for two of each species. (ha ha!)

It appears that all segments are flat or declining, although if you read the quarterly Kline report, it's rainbows and unicorns. The scuba industry was never a big, happy family. No one ever loved their neighbor. It's always been the spearos vs. the photogs vs the shell collectors vs the fish huggers. The split fin against the jet fin against the Force Fin. Propped up? None needs propping up. This isn't Kalifornia, you know.

Are 15 regulator companies and 9 backplate companies making a profit? Is that profit enough to satisfy the shareholders? Then who cares how many folks are making backplates and regulators? Pick the one you want and don't worry about the rest.

No one is suggesting that every gear company, dive store, dive operator, online store, and every resort stay in business. Where a need is perceived, someone will fill that need. When it is no longer needed, no one will fill it any more. It seems that you have a need to improve folks scuba skills. First part of marketing, identify a need. Now, you should look around to see if a product fills the need. If one does, go ahead and buy it. If none does, you have a choice to get your need taken care of by forming a company to fill the need in the hopes that enough other folks have the same need, or change your need. That's called market research.

I would love to invite people to come diving for free, but that doesn't pay the insurance or the slip fee. Of course it's about the money. Without money, I can't pay the slip fee, or buy beer.

Diving does not need a bailout. No one here has suggested anything like that. Folks in the Dive Industry need some direction, someone to do market research, someone to figure out what the needs of the consumer of leisure activities are, and guide us in that direction. Market research does not always have a happy ending. It may well be determined that the cost of running a dive boat/dive shop/manufacturing gear has risen to the point that the consumer just won't bear the cost any more.

I like your posts, Wookie. Maybe the reason the research hasn't been done is because of the fear of finding that out.

During these two dive marketing threads I've seen surprisingly little about what these posters would actually do about it. Instead I see a lot of marketing jargon, statistics, etc. but not a lot about actual ideas for solutions.

I know I'm doing my part, at least I try. I talk to people every day about whether they've ever considered scuba diving. I have friends who I've actually gotten into diving that never would have considered it otherwise.
If every diver on earth just got one person to take it up the diver population would double (another useless statistic).
It's easy to sit around and bitch, but what are you guys doing about it?
It's easy to complain that there's no this or that anymore and it's dying. Well who were the ones who got it going and how did they do it?
The people that staerted it are gone now. If you want it you need to step up and do something yourselves because nobody is going to do it for you. You are the divers, you should be the ones trying to grow your sport. I ask you, who else do you think is responsible to make it happen?
I started a dive club where I live because the other ones were dying out and I didn't like the way they were run. It's now the biggest club in the area and the dive turnouts are bigger than any other clubs ever had in history. The secret, no dues and no fees. Just show up and dive. It was a place for new divers to meet and do a shore dive. If I didn't start the club nobody would have. There is absolutely no reason why each and every one of those members couldn't have done the exact same thing, but they didn't. But they sure enjoyed the benefits of having a local dive club and all the friendships that grew from it! If that club never started there's a good chance many of those people wouldn't have dove locally, and they sure as hell wouldn't have gotten to know each other as dive buddies and friends.
In fact, my two best dive buddies and best friends are products from that dive club, and I have a whole circle of friends because of that dive club.

Why don't you:
Start a dive club and have each person who joins ask two of their non certified threads to go to a meeting and have some beer and pizza. You never know, maybe they will get into diving based on what they see and hear.
Go door to door to one hundred houses and take a survey on scuba diving and ask people if they have ever considered it.

Dive shops: When was the last time you ran some radio ads?
Dive boats: Same question.

Video freaks, why don't you produce a short film about diving and enter it in a film festival?
Get creative, there are hundreds of ways to do your part.
Bitching on Scubaboard isn't going to do a damn thing.

Right there with you! Not only do I want to do something about it, I am going to help other's do something about it!

Any idea what a radio ad costs?
Any reason you recommend radio over newspaper advertising? Or billboards?
Can you share your media analysis? What's your CPM assumption? CPP? ROI projections?
What radio format is best to reach the target audience? Talk? Sports radio? Top 40?
Any suggestion what specific station the ad should be run on? Which daypart?
How many ads should be run per day/week/month?
What is the broader media mix, or is radio supposed to work by itself?
Any idea what the message should be?
Any idea how to do the ad in a way that it will disproportionately benefit one dive shop over all the other shops in the listening area?

I think if you look into the cost of running a radio ad... you'll find that there's no reason for a dive shop or charter boat to bother worrying about the answers to the other questions. Especially if you also don't know who your audience is... or what your message is.

Here's the good news. Instead of a radio ad, make a podcast. Instead of an ad in a newspaper, write a blog. Figuring out best avenue/time of day and ROI have just become a THOUSAND times easier with the technology of the Internet. Google LOVES local businesses and promotes local search. They don't want you to have to compete with business across the country... Setting your biz up with Google places helps with that. I agree with Eric Sedletzky-- everyone who loves diving needs promote diving. ESPECIALLY those that work in the industry. It's key to our survival.

Good marketing will have all the components of what "Mad-Man-RJP" speaks of. Figuring out your target market and what you're REALLY selling is key. That part is interesting and I think everyone agrees on the basics.

We haven't brought up Unique Selling Position (USP). In order to be successful at marketing and business every LDS needs to have a USP. That is, what is it that your business does better, faster, different than anyone else??? Wookie's liveaboard has established itself as not the same as Aggressor. So much so, it's hard to call them a competitor. That's smart! We talked about Julie Gas earlier. A gas station that sells hard-to-find microbrew. Every LDS needs to find a niche and define what they can do that's better than anyone else. Oh, and "cheapest price" shouldn't be your USP.

What I'm really excited about is the Internet. I don't think anyone in the industry is cashing in on this phenomenon. (except maybe scubaboard) Please don't shut your ears just because of the LeisurePro situation. Put LP out of your mind for the purpose of this discussion. If a LDS has a solid USP then they shouldn't have to worry about LP. (HA)

The basis of my business is going to be content marketing. Sometimes called business blogging. Before you start rolling your eyes and say I sound like a sleezy SEO consultant, hear me out.

97^% of purchasing decisions begin on the internet.
Blogging creates more indexed pages on your website. People land on pages, NOT websites. And the thing about SEO is that --pages are ranked-- not sites. When you write educational informative blog posts for your business you can establish your self as an authority on a topic. Your customers are curious about who they do business with. AND Social media let's customers know the personal side. They want to make sure your values really do line up with theirs. They want to know that you love 5 Guys and you're spending some time shoveling the driveway. When you expose personal details like that, it's endearing and it makes customers like you and it builds relationships. Here you have a whole new place to wow your customers. The credo will be to give give give give before you ever ask for a sale. Your marketing dollars last longer and it's all very affordable. I could go on and on. Look up Inbound Marketing to know more. And why haven't any of you signed up for my newsletter on HighVizMarketing.com? I'm going to give away a whole educational series on Inbound Marketing there. (sorry for the pitch)

 

[Wookie]

And why haven't any of you signed up for my newsletter on HighVizMarketing.com? I'm going to give away a whole educational series on Inbound Marketing there. (sorry for the pitch)

I personally am waiting on some content. Last time I clicked through, I got a 404, this time I get a coming soon with an e-mail signup. I guard my e-mail addy pretty jealously, as when I am offshore, I pay $18 a meg for e-mail. I want to see the content before I sign up for it.

But, believe me. I'm watching.