Mares warranty service

[Marek K]

My point exactly...

I'll be out 40$ (canadian)...

Not a big deal, just a minor annoyance, and a little disappointment, is all.

Forty bucks Canadian?? Like US$ 32? To replace a second-stage valve seat, under warranty?? That's approaching the total labor charge for an entire regulator annual service -- first stage and two second stages, at some reputable shops, depending on your local market.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me (us?) why this Mares warranty doesn't cover labor for a defect...

--Marek

 

[Scuba]

An old warranty card I have from Mares reads a little different. It does mention that parts and labor are covered for manufacturing defects. The warranty you posted, Marek K, makes no mention regarding parts or labor. It does state:

Mares will at their option repair or replace any components they find to be defective.

What does your warranty card state abitton?

Phil Mintz, you said Mares Warranty covers parts. Not exclusively according to my warranty card. Not according to Marek K’s posted Mares warranty unless he omitted something. Possibly in regards to authorized dealer service? Where does it state such in the Mares warranty? Please explain.

Quote from my warranty card: Mares Warranty North America

To obtain service under this warranty for a regulator problem which appears to be defective under the warranty, you must deliver the regulator to the Mares Service Center or one of Mares America’s authorized repair facilities. If you send the regulator to the MSC, you must pay shipping charges to the Center. If the Center determines that the problem is due to a manufacturing or material defect, there will be no charge for parts, labor or return shipping. Mares America reserves the right to repair or replace the product at its option.

Exactly what are the authorized Mares repair facilities and what exactly are they (contractually?) obligated to perform in this matter? Are these the same as "authorized dealer"?

Just my opinion but as I read this warranty it clearly states that a defective product will be made whole again at no cost to the consumer except for shipping costs to a Mares service center should he go this route.

I don’t want to get ahead of the curve here before Phil responds, but many manufacturers in general like to brag about their warranties to consumers. Often times consumers do not realize the real value, or lack thereof, of a warranty until it comes time to use it.

 

[Marek K]

An old warranty card I have from Mares reads a little different. It does mention that parts and labor are covered for manufacturing defects. The warranty you posted, Marek K, makes no mention regarding parts or labor. [...] Phil Mintz, you said Mares Warranty covers parts. Not exclusively according to my warranty card. Not according to Marek K’s posted Mares warranty unless he omitted something.

That was the entire fine-print warranty paragraph, fat-fingered in. Ask my aching fingers and squinting eyes.

You're right, Scuba; your warranty does specifically say parts and labor. And mine doesn't. Though I think both parts and labor are implied in "Mares will at their option repair or replace any components they find to be defective."

OBTW, my warranty doesn't specifically state it's for North America. In fact, all the information is in several different languages -- Italian, English, German, French at least. I suspect (hope) it may be a worldwide warranty. Though I got the two regulators from ScubaToys, so the warranty should at least be valid in the U.S.

What does your warranty card state abitton?

Good point.

Just my opinion but as I read this warranty it clearly states that a defective product will be made whole again at no cost to the consumer except for shipping costs to a Mares service center should he go this route.

Yup.

many manufacturers in general like to brag about their warranties to consumers.

I had the same thought. Unfortunately, taking a cursory look at least at the Mares web site, I didn't find any warranty information advertised. I'll keep looking.

Often times consumers do not realize the real value, or lack thereof, of a warranty until it comes time to use it.

Excellent point. *sigh*

--Marek

 

[abitton]

It has exactly the same text than Marek's...

What does your warranty card state abitton?

 

[Phil Mintz]

It has exactly the same text than Marek's...

I guess should address to all;

(Marek, I do have a thick skin, but this is a good conversation and I appreciate the questions as long as we all remain respectful, which we have).

When we discuss these issues it is important that we try to be clear as any warranty "language" can be confusing including automobiles.

Yes, if the reg is defective Mares will cover the entire cost. Any Authorized dealer or consumer (we prefer you go through the dealer) can send it back to us for repair or replacement. I am referring to a defect, not normal wear and tear, abuse or standard service. It is important to never make judgement on an issue until it is evaluated first hand no matter how knowlegable someone may be. Yes, in past our US service may have been slow, but we have been working hard to improve this and we get better everyday. I have been in charge of this division for 5 months and our goal is to be the best company to do business with (have been with another division of HEAD USA for 15 years).

It is natural to receive better service from the actual place of purchase than another shop that did not make the sale (unless they are trying to win you as a customer). While regs and automobiles are not apples to apples, I know if I bring my car to the dealer I purchased it from I will receive better, faster service than if I go toanother. While the auto companies say this should not be, it is fact (I live in NY).

An authorized dealer is someone that Mares sells to directly and has been trained to service our products by our technicians. Any Mares product should be able to be serviced by any Authorized dealer worldwide. As we are all aware in this business the majority of dealers are small business people. As in all businesses some run their business well and others do not. While we strongly reccommend that every authorized dealer provide service, we cannot mandate the extent (different from an auto dealer who is a franchise). Naturally if a dealer is not representing our products in the manner we consider to be professional, we can choose to not do business with them and revoke their "authorization" (different laws apply in different countries).

Our policy while not "exact" is similar to most major Dive companies in terms of "labor" service. Ultimitly we want the end user to be happy with our products and any consumer who is not satisfied with a product and is not getting help from the dealer should contact the company. I have done this in cases with other consumer products and have typically found most reputable companies stand behind their products (as we do) and want to make the customer happy.

I hope this helps, sorry for any typos as I have probably gone on too long.

Best regards,

Phil

 

[Marek K]

Yes, if the reg is defective Mares will cover the entire cost. Any Authorized dealer or consumer (we prefer you go through the dealer) can send it back to us for repair or replacement. I am referring to a defect, not normal wear and tear, abuse or standard service. It is important to never make judgement on an issue until it is evaluated first hand no matter how knowlegable someone may be.

Hi Phil--

We all appreciate the answer. That's clear now -- parts and labor on defects.

OK... I think we were all confused when you wrote in Post 11 that "Mares Warranty covers the parts" -- which implied not the labor. It's beginning to dawn on me that you thought -- as I did at first -- that Alex's/abitton's regulator only needed an adjustment, rather than having something defective. Right? And that adjusting a brand-new regulator, or going back and fixing their own adjustment, should be the responsibility of the selling dealer, not Mares's?

But if, as Alex/abitton says in Post 18, his local Mares dealer indeed found something wrong with the valve seat, and had to replace it, Mares should have covered the parts and labor on the repair -- no? Even if they did the work themselves, and didn't have to return it to Mares?

A vous, Alex... What did your local dealer tell you?

--Marek

 

[abitton]

Thank you very much for your reply, Phil! I think we all appreciate the fact that you take the time to answer our questions!

I guess, for my case specifically, I should wait for the final diagnostic and see exactly what the shop will do. I have assumed that the issue was a defect, since the reg had been used on only 3 dives. I have heard that a grain of sand can actually result in the same symptoms. If that is the case, obviously I'm on the hook for the maintenance. If in fact it is a defect (which can happen, and in my opinion does not reflect badly on Mares - unless 1 out of every 5 regs have it ), then I should be given the option to send it back to the manufacturer for repair/replacement OR have the shop repair it for a fee.

Does this make sense?

Alex

P.S. I will be speaking to the dealer later today...

 

[abitton]

Update on dealer:

He has verified that the place I bought it from was an authorized dealer and that the warranty was valid. He has not yet opened the reg, but has said that labor was not included. Of course, maybe he assumes it could also be an adjusment issue, in which case it would be legitimate to charge.

More to come later tonight. My GF is supposed to call/go by today. It's on her way from work. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Scuba]

I have been in charge of this division for 5 months and our goal is to be the best company to do business with

You make some good points Phil Mintz. The fact you and other SCUBA industry business people are here on a public forum openly discussing issues with your customers shows a level of dedication to communicate and listen to customer issues. It is appreciated by many, if I may say so. But ultimately, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. My following comments will not please you. However, I would hope you take them as intended - constructive criticism. Sometimes the language used is not specific and different people may be discussing different aspects, so feel free to clarify any points made. Nonetheless, taking this discussion as a whole, here are my comments.

In regards to the issues being discussed, specifically the question of parts and labor coverage by the Mares warranty, you first stated

Mares Warranty covers the parts

After I posted a quote from an older Mares warranty explicitly stating it covers labor you stated

Yes, if the reg is defective Mares will cover the entire cost.

The language in the newer Mares warranty posted by Marek K is more confusing and ambiguous than in the older warranty I quoted from. Thus, it is more difficult for the consumer to clearly understand, as clearly evidenced in this thread. The following quote from you is spot on in this case

When we discuss these issues it is important that we try to be clear as any warranty "language" can be confusing including automobiles.

There is no reason a warranty can not be clear and specific in simple language that can be easily understood by the vast majority of consumers, while still upholding company interests. The ambiguous nature of these warranties create a false appeal for many consumer, as evidenced by widespread consumer misconceptions about warranties in general. They have a tendency to believe they are covered by more than actual coverage. The fact some dealers and company reps engage in further spreading contradictory, vague, or false information compounds the confusion. To some extent this favors business. It’s common practice so many probably view it overall as a net positive for the bottom line. The Mares warranty discussion here illustrates some of these issues quite clearly, though these issues are not exclusive to Mares by any means as you stated.

I would hope the company commitment stated in the first quote above leads Mares to reverse the trend evident in, and in regards to the aforementioned warranties.

Basically:

Mares co.is the only one obligated for warranty performance.

Warranty covers parts and labor when stipulated conditions are met.

Authorized dealers are under no obligation to honor warranty. They may do so on a voluntary basis, fully, partially, or not at all.

Customer is responsible for shipping charges to Mares Service Center, at a minimum, unless authorized dealer chooses to resolve the issue at no cost.

And so on.........

By the way, you state you can not mandate authorized dealers to honor your warranty, yet, I’m sure you have a dealer agreement/contract with them stipulating certain conditions be met. Mares has made a business decision to exclude warranty performance as a condition of authorized dealership by choice.

On to other issues.

The issue of adjustment has repeatedly come up. A new regulator that needs "something" after three dives in a month in order to function properly through no fault of the buyer is not operating correctly as a new product should. This can be remedied under the warranty.

Mares warrants this regulator against defects in materials and workmanship

In all fairness, abitton, the dealer you purchased from appears to have offered to honor the warranty. So did Mares as per Phil here. You chose to go with a dealer you want to build a personal, and as is often the case - costly relationship with, who did not come through for you in this matter. I am not passing judgment, we all have our reasons and justifications. It’s quite possible that after reg service expense, you still came out ahead price wise by buying online.

I’m glad to see Mares allow online sales. Now if they only stood behind their products sold through all legitimate retail dealers with their warranty and worked out an agreement with their authorized dealers for warranty service! Oh, that's too much to ask for, I guess. Silly consumer that I am.

It is in the interest of business to find a profitable way to meet the interests of consumers.

 

[Marek K]

You make some good points Phil Mintz. [...] By the way, you state you can not mandate authorized dealers to honor your warranty, yet, I’m sure you have a dealer agreement/contract with them stipulating certain conditions be met. Mares has made a business decision to exclude warranty performance as a condition of authorized dealership by choice.

Scuba--

You're right -- we really, really need Phil Mintz and Mares to clarify all this.

Meantime, I've done some digging through the Mares web site. Under "Authorized Dealers," they list four dealers here in Warsaw, Poland. But under "Technical Service Centers," they list two other dive shops that I'm familiar with. I know those two are also authorized dealers (obviously), but for some reason aren't listed under "Authorized Dealers."

OK, so from this I conclude several things. First, not all authorized dealers are also technical service centers. Makes sense; Mares would want to make sure service centers can do more than just annual services.

Second, many dealers are also technical service centers; and there should therefore be several technical service centers in any decent-sized city.

Third, I assume that these "Technical Service Centers" are the same as the "authorized repair facilities" cited in the warranty I have, and that's where I'd have to take my regulators for any warranty work. In other words, that's good; I wouldn't have to send the things away somewhere for warranty work.

The issue of adjustment has repeatedly come up. A new regulator that needs "something" after three dives in a month in order to function properly through no fault of the buyer is not operating correctly as a new product should. This can be remedied under the warranty.

In all fairness, abitton, the dealer you purchased from appears to have offered to honor the warranty.

You know, I'm not sure whether adjusting a brand-new regulator is the responsibility of a manufacturer like Mares, and whether it's covered under a manufacturer's warranty. Do incorrect adjustments count as "defects in materials and workmanship"? We certainly can't 100% assume that a reg straight out of the box will be correctly adjusted, though I suspect that most are just fine. Rather seems like it's the responsibility of the selling dealer to do those tests and if necessary adjustments. If that's the case, it may well be that the adjustment is not a Mares warranty issue, but one that should be covered exclusively by the selling dealer.

--Marek