Mares: designed for 40%, do not use with 22+% while in EU - ???

[dfad]

So my family make me a gift: a set of Mares Prestige 15X.
And I found the following warnings in the manual, one directly following another:

1. "This regulator is not meant to be used with any breathing gas containing 22% or more of oxygen"
2. "NOTE: USE OF NITROX MIXES OUTSIDE OF THE EUROPEAN UNION [...] all components of the gas delivery system are compatible with [...] oxygen content not greater than 40%"

So, do I understand correctly that this set is fully Nitrox-compatible, but some legal regulations do not allow to use it with Nitrox inside EU?

 

[scubadada]

In the EU, regulators and tank valves to be used with nitrox are supposed to have M26 connections. M26 connections are larger and not compatible with standard DIN or yoke fittings. Your regulator must have a standard DIN or yoke connection and is compatible with nitrox up to 40%

There are adapters std DIN to M26 and M26 to std DIN

 

[broncobowsher]

The regulator is fine to 40%.
EU has extra laws that don't apply outside the EU. Like odd Nitrox valve thread sizes that are only used in EU and the rest of the world doesn't have a problem.

 

[Alekseolsen]

Just to allow a European perspective: nobody in Europe apart from the French seem to bother with M26, in fact I've not even seen a M26 regulator.
French cave country also seem to ignore the same - thus I believe this is a subject mainly for Brussels

 

[JMBL]

So my family make me a gift: a set of Mares Prestige 15X.
And I found the following warnings in the manual, one directly following another:

1. "This regulator is not meant to be used with any breathing gas containing 22% or more of oxygen"
2. "NOTE: USE OF NITROX MIXES OUTSIDE OF THE EUROPEAN UNION [...] all components of the gas delivery system are compatible with [...] oxygen content not greater than 40%"

So, do I understand correctly that this set is fully Nitrox-compatible, but some legal regulations do not allow to use it with Nitrox inside EU?

I'll try to answer that one. The statement provided with your regulator seems to me like a poor attempt by an attorney to cover the firm's ass if a user ever get killed while diving nitrox with such a regulator. In plain English, that's a lot of BS. Let me explain :

1. "This regulator is not meant to be used with any breathing gas containing 22% or more of oxygen" => we're beginning with a lot of non sense. Was Nitrox certified in 1990, and been diving with mixes other than air (from pure O2 to normoxic trimix) ever since.

Every mix gaz training you'll ever be involved with, whatever the agency or the country, will start with this reminder : any regulator is good to dive with any nitrox between 22% and 40% O2. Beyond 40% (i.e deco mixes), you'll need to have a regulator prepared for such gaz (i.e cleaned, lube with O2 friendly grease, and the right rings).

So goes Mares first warming : to the scrap bin.

2. "NOTE: USE OF NITROX MIXES OUTSIDE OF THE EUROPEAN UNION [...] all components of the gas delivery system are compatible with [...] oxygen content not greater than 40%" :

This one is even more puzzling. That part : "all components of the gas delivery system are compatible with [...] oxygen content not greater than 40%" is in full contradiction with their 1st statement. No need to dig further.

As far as EU is concerned : the only special rule concerning nitrox is about deco mixes (above 40% and up to 100% O2). You are supposed to have a compatible reg for that (just plain old good sense) and use a tank fitted with a M26 DIN valve (diameter is much wider) to (supposedly) prevent using a non O2 compatible regulator.

Well, the rule does exist, but in reality, only my poor old homeland (France) is making a fuss about it. I dived with guys from Belgium, Germany, Italy, Spain, UK, wherever and I can't say they care much about the so called M26 regulation (and for a good reason, it's useless).

My conclusion : don't bother with that silly non sense and if you're nitrox certified, dive your reg.

 

[scubadada]

Hi @Alekseolsen (though your country is not in the EU) @JMBL others in the EU

Do they sell both M26 and std DIN regulators and valves? When they fill your tanks, do they care what kind of valve it has? When you go out on a boat, do they care about what regs/valves you are using?

Having never dived in the EU, this topic is interesting to me. Having been enacted in 2008, noncompliance does not seem like the EU

 

[Alekseolsen]

Hi @Alekseolsen (though your country is not in the EU) @JMBL others in the EU

Do they sell both M26 and std DIN regulators and valves? When they fill your tanks, do they care what kind of valve it has? When you go out on a boat, do they care about what regs/valves you are using?

Having never dived in the EU, this topic is interesting to me. Having been enacted in 2008, noncompliance does not seem like the EU

Well, outside Scubaboard and some rebreather-listings I've never seen nor heard of M26 regs or valves. My local diveshop, or any of the two diveclubs I fill at has whips for M26 (possibly there is a transition piece available). Further I did not hear of the M26 when I took my blender course a few years back.

A few shops may check you tank hydro-date - and some may have to search around for a transition piece if you have Yoke valves, apart form that the shops I've been at won't bother. Any diveshop questioning the divegear would be well beyond my imagination. Norway may be less "strict" than other countries, but aim currently in Greece, and nobody checked anyone's divegear from what I could observe on the boat.

 

[JMBL]

Do they sell both M26 and std DIN regulators and valves? When they fill your tanks, do they care what kind of valve it has? When you go out on a boat, do they care about what regs/valves you are using?

If you want to buy a deco reg (i.e for nitrox beyond 40%) usable out the box, so to speak, you'll find both versions if you're buying from a Tek oriented brand, here's an example. Mainstream brands, like Scubapro, or Aqualung will provide you with only a M26 version. No surprise concerning Aqualung, they were deeply involved with the invention of that damned contraption. So, if you want to dive deco nitrox with those brands, you'll have to service your reg for O2 all by yourself. It's just the same with valves.

As far as filling up a tank, or diving with a LDS, there's no hardcore rule :

- some will refuse to fill up your tank without the damned valve, and will refuse you to use a regulator without the "required" queue, even thought it's bee O2 cleaned. It's not so frequent, but it happens and once is already one time too many. Better check with the operator before diving there. Nowadays, with mail and cell phone it's too easy to do, so why not doing it ?

- many won't bother once they've checked you're certified to use the mixes and the equipment to go with and will even provide adapters is the need arises.

As far as French cave country is concerned, it's a bit different : it's probably the oldest and most oriented tek diving area in France, so the culture is broader and more tolerant. Besides, diving regulations in open water (our "Code du sport") doesn't apply there, cause it's an overhead environment, still the regulations concerning tank filling are the same, so once more, all will depend on the operator, but in my own experience, it's easier to find a solution in cave country than on the shores of the Med.

 

[Tanks A Lot]

I do want to add a bit of historical context, as I often see people slightly misinformed on the issue.

For Europe:

• For quite a few decades, oxygen was correlated with a G3/4" thread, in the SCUBA, medical and industrial settings.
• Around 1998, EN144-2 was rewritten and introduced a M24x2 external thread for 200 bar oxygen connections and a M22x1.5 external thread for 300 oxygen connections to the diving industry. Notably ScubaPro and Dräger had been involved in this. Though this was a European Norm, it was mainly enforced in the German speaking markets, namely Switzerland, Austria and Germany.
• In 2003 EN144-3 was codified and brought the dreaded M26x2 connection onto the SCUBA market and the whole EU had to follow suit. Anyone that invested into the earlier M24x2 connection was left holding the bag with now essentially useless connections.

Now here our American friends may smile smugly to the Europeans follies! But if you do dig a little into the U.S. history, it becomes clear that the U.S. divers were just a bit more stubborn in adopting new (useless) connections. One may even argue that the U.S. connections that tried to "achieve" something similar to the M26x2 were so stupid, that they had to fail to be adopted.

For the U.S.:

• In 2000 the CGA introduced two new SCUBA connections to the CGA V-1: Connectors #851 and #853. The 851 connection was meant for hypoxic gases, while 853 was meant for hyperoxic gases. This in essence meant that a technical diver that carried air, a bottom gas and deco gas would have to have THREE different connections. If that doesn't scream silly I do not know what does.
• Alas, you Americans were stubborn enough and in 2005 with the twelfth edition of the CGA V-1, both connectors got scrubbed. The little side-note in the document still gives me a chuckle:"[...] because they were not properly used by the diving industry."

I do want to point out that the Europeans were up in arms when EN144-3 was introduced and several petitions where brought forth. I can't remember which government it was exactly, but can certainly dig it up, but one government response to petitions against EN144-3 was as follows: Standards are not laws. If you can prove that your system or design is as safe as feasible can be and in no way lacks behind industry standards, there is nothing stopping you from ignoring a certain standard.
I also want to point out that it becomes quite clear why EN144-3 was introduced and why the CGA V-1 introduced two new connectors roughly at the same time. It has absolutely nothing to do with safety whatsoever, but rather with manufacturers possibility to sell more gear. The motives and intentions for both standard changes were and still are of mere monetary nature, nothing else. Any safety arguments they bring to the table are laughable and easily dismissed.

I wish that the Europeans would shun EN144-3 it just as the Americans shunned their connections.

In the meantime, adapters from M26x2 to G5/8" and vice versa are easily available. I do not like the use of adapters, as it introduces a new failure element to the system, but I despise the silliness of the M26x2 connection even more than adapters.

 

[JMBL]

but I despise the silliness of the M26x2 connection even more than adapters.

Everybody around here will agree with you I guess.