M Values

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gday ok here goes i know what m values are what i need is information on how they are determined (ie mathamatical formula)or is it just through endless trials and tests i know that the rdp's for no stop diving must apply the same m values or very simular, but what are they? ie the 5 minute comparment has a m value of 30msw(meters of sea water) so it controls all dives 30 meters or deeper but on a shallower dive of lets same 24 meters the 20 minute compartment controls the dive, but what exatly are the m values for the 14 compartments used in the rdp, there must be a graph or something out there but i cannot hunt one down and its doing my head in so if any one can help, it would be appreciated
 
Your best place to start is the excellent article by Erik Baker, http://www.tek-dive.com/portal/upload/M-Values.pdf

Also available at Downloads . That link also has some other good Erik Baker articles on calculating no-stop times and understanding deep stops.

The article lists the m-values for the DSAT/PADI model and also for many other models such as USN/Workmann an Buhlmann's ZHL16A/B/C.

M-values are simply the limits for the partial presure of dissolved N2. Faster compartments have higher limits. All limits apply at all times, but if you were to descend from the surface directly to 40 meters, the 5 and 10 minute compartments would load up faster and hit their limits first. OTOH, if you descended only to 15 meters, the limits for the fastest compartments is deeper than the inspired ppN2 at 15 meters so even at saturation the fastest compartments would be within limits. A slower compartment would be the one to first hit its limit, and therefore setting the NDL/ no-stop time limit. As a rough rule of thumb, the controlling compartment (the one that hits the limit first and therefore sets the NDL time) will have a haltime about 1/2 of the NDL for that depth.

Charlie Allen
 
Adding to Erik's excellent summary...

Workman's Tech report on M-values.

CALCULATION OF DECOMPRESSION SCHEDULES FOR NITROGEN-OXYGEN AND HELIUM-OXYGEN DIVES.
Workman. 1965
RRR ID: 3367

And same calculation later by Braithwaite.

Systematic Guide to Decompression Schedule Calculations.
Braithwaite. 1972
RRR ID: 3945
 
Hi liquidlife:

There are short books (reports) that describe the RDP from PADI/DSAT. I wrote the first one and Dr Hamilton was lead author on the second that descibed the complete test series.

Gene Hobbs can supply the link through Ribicon Research Depository.

The thoughts you have in your IP are not correct. The book will help considerably!
 
There are short books (reports) that describe the RDP from PADI/DSAT. I wrote the first one and Dr Hamilton was lead author on the second that descibed the complete test series.

Sorry for the delay!

Development and validation of no-stop decompression procedures for recreational diving: the DSAT recreational dive planner.
Hamilton, Rogers, and Powell. 1994
RRR ID: 4228

Doppler ultrasound monitoring of the gas phase formation following decompression in repetitive dives.
Powell, Spencer, and Rogers. 1988
RRR ID: 4229
 
Charlie99, thanks for the link to the article by Baker. It is very helpful and interesting to note the similarities among the different tables.

I understand that the faster tissue compartments have higher M-values, but I was never quite sure why this is so. My intuitive answer has been that the fast compartments can tolerate higher nitrogen loads because they can unload enough by the time one reaches the surface (assuming a safe ascent rate) to avoid excessive bubble formation.

According to Baker, Buhlmann's M-values were determined empirically using actual decompression testing. I do not know whether the testing was done and the formula derived from the results, or whether the formula was hypothesized and the data found to confirm it.

In any case, when asking why fast compartments have higher M-values, it seems one could answer that the M-values are what they are because that's what testing showed they should be. Indeed, Buhlmann tweaked his formula to lower the values when it was discovered that the original values were not conservative enough.

When one also starts considering "compartment shift" as fast compartments off-gas into slower compartments on ascent, it really gets complicated, and that is where empiric data do help. On the other hand, empiric explanations can seem a bit like when a parent tells a child who is asking why, "Because I said so."

In medicine we usually try to provide a physiologic explanation for results obtained through clinical experiments. In other words, we try to match what we think should happen with what actually happened.

So empiric testing showed that faster compartments have higher M-values, but is that what we think should be the case? Again, my explanation is yes -- because although the fast compartments load up more quickly, they can also unload more quickly. Thus they can tolerate a deeper dive with its higher nitrogen pressures.

Am I right or am I off base here?
 
Hello wve:

Your explanation for higher M-values with faster compartments is the standard explanation given by Dr Robert Workman [Navy Experimental Diving Unit] in 1965. [Thus you are partly correct.] He said, fast compartments sustain supersaturation for a shorter duration and thus have a lower likelihood for bubble formation. He also suggested that the inert gas solubility is greater in some slow tissues and thus the number of dissolved nitrogen molecules is greater than in fast compartments.

It is important to recall, however, that the calculation scheme [algorithm] is just a calculation scheme. There does not exist any proof that it is physiologically real. In fact, analysis of why a certain decompression problem developed most often is very unsatisfactory using gas load analysis.

Another method of analysis considers tissue gas micronuclei. This would include their size, number, location, and rate of formation.


Dr Deco :doctor:

The next class in Decompression Physiology for 2008 is November 15 - 16.
This class is at the USC campus in Los Angeles.
Advanced Decompression Physiology Seminar Information
 
It is important to recall, however, that the calculation scheme [algorithm] is just a calculation scheme. There does not exist any proof that it is physiologically real. In fact, analysis of why a certain decompression problem developed most often is very unsatisfactory using gas load analysis.

Thank you, Dr Powell.

The discrepancy between theory and fact is precisely what troubles me.

The mathematical decompression models seem to work well even if we do not fully understand why or even whether they correspond to actual physiology.

From a practical standpoint, this is fine. All we need to know in order to go diving is that the models do work, the same as we only need to know that a regulator works, not necessarily how or why.

I guess when most people dive, they enjoy the view. However, the scientific side of my brain is also trying to imagine what is going on inside my body. Is the nitrogen really releasing as we think? Is it passing from "fast tissues" to "slow tissues"? Are bubbles really forming? Exactly what is really going on in there?

As you suggest, the questions become particularly acute when someone follows the model and yet suffers from DCS. We ask ourselves why because it shakes our faith in the model a bit.

But this is often the way of science. We know what usually works long before we know why it works.

By the way, thanks for the course notice. I'll have to check my calendar and see if it is possible to make it!
 
Hello wve and Readers:

"The discrepancy between theory and fact is precisely what troubles me. "

Indeed, it is troubling - although it is often this discrepancy that leads to advances in science

"The mathematical decompression models seem to work well even if we do not fully understand why or even whether they correspond to actual physiology."

It has been suggested that the lack of progress in understanding the physiology is that the Haldane method works so well. ["If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”]

"I guess when most people dive, they enjoy the view. However, the scientific side of my brain is also trying to imagine what is going on inside my body. Is the nitrogen really releasing as we think? Is it passing from "fast tissues" to "slow tissues"? Are bubbles really forming? Exactly what is really going on in there? "

Most explanations are based upon gas loading analysis, not free-gas dynamics. Dissolved nitrogen probably passes from genuinely slow tissues [such as fat overlying tendons]. Bubbles generally do not form from the low dissolved nitrogen pressures. De novo formation of a gas phase is not occurring. Micronuclei are not a part of the Haldane Method.


Dr Deco :doctor:

The next class in Decompression Physiology for 2008 is November 15 - 16. :read:
This class is at the USC campus in Los Angeles.
Advanced Decompression Physiology Seminar Information
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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