Lusitania dive accident - insufficient insurance

[Marie13]

Going off topic here, but can you please tell me what happens in English courts.

Jarndyce and Jarndyce

 

[DandyDon]

I saw today that DAN dive insurance is no longer available to Quebec residents.
"Unfortunately, due to insurance regulation changes, DAN is unable to offer dive accident insurance to residents of Quebec. This affects existing DAN members who wish to renew their policies as well as prospective DAN members seeking to purchase dive accident insurance policies for the first time. Coverage for DAN members who currently hold an active dive accident insurance policy will remain in effect until the policy’s stated termination date."

DAN insurance apparently covers you basically from the moment you get on to the boat, until you get off it again.

Nope, not Dive Insurance. Are you talking about one of their other insurance plans? Excerpting from their Dive Insurance handbook.
"COVERED DIVE or COVERED DIVING ACTIVITY means a recreational dive or diving while a scuba instructor, divemaster, underwater photographer, or while performing research under the auspices and following the diving safety guidelines of the Canadian Academy of Underwater Scientists (CAUS) or a group whose written diving research protocol meets or exceeds those of the CAUS. A dive begins upon entry into the water and ends upon exit from the water. A Covered Dive must begin while insurance is in force."

I am happy to hear that DAN provided full medical repatriation including a private nurse, but that was not a benefit of DAN Dive Insurance, aside from 10-20K Medical Non-Dive Accidents coverage built into some dive insurance plans. It is a benefit of membership under Travelers Assist. They may well have gone beyond requirements, and that is possible, up to them. For repatriation or emergency evacuation to be covered, it has to be arranged by DAN, but - I know of one non-diving case in California I think when the emergency evacuation was not arranged by them, but they still paid.

Even with the Conception situation, I suspect that their exposure will be relatively small because (and I apologize for this sounding cold) the victims died. Apart from funeral costs and I suppose the victim's equipment loss, I don't think DAN insurance covers any sort of liability insurance.

That was not covered by DAN Dive insurance, and I don't think they paid anything other than repatriation of remains and maybe some Medical Non-Dive Accidents coverage.

 

[KenGordon]

Healthcare expenditure, UK Health Accounts - Office for National Statistics

How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

The US government spends more per head on healthcare than the U.K. government. Then the us private sector spends the same again, in the UK private spending adds a third.

In the U.K., unlike the Canadian example where someone lost their job to obtain care, there Is no means tested element. Employed people and unemployed people are treated exactly the same way. This is slightly less true in England where there is a charge of about £10 per prescription which is not paid by pensioners, children and people on benefits.

So a U.K. tax payer is spending the same on health as a US tax payer but does not have to also but expensive insurance to actually be treated.

Most large companies offer additional medical insurance which allows employees to be treated in private sector hospitals. These are generally nicer, see you on time and sooner. If you are working that is very important. That insurance costs about £1800 per person I think.

The problem with the U.K. health service is that it is very much subject to political whim. Between 1997 and 2010 a lot was invested and a lot of hospitals improved or build since then we have had aggressive cost cutting and that has greatly damaged the quality of service.
This is a self correcting thing though as the cost cutters are elected mainly by old people How Britain voted in the 2019 general election | YouGov who will die sooner as a result. Much of health expenditure is in the final years of life.

The U.K. system has significant issues arising from funding, but in value for money terms the US system is a disaster.

I think that people who talk as though their taxes pay for things really ought to get up to date. That is a Victorian approach. Today the US central government tax take is only about 75% of the spend, in the U.K. it is about 93%. This is not a perfect comparison due to the weird structure of states etc, but I can’t easily find the whole number. Anyway, Keynes rules (sort of) in the US.

 

[Stoo]

Nope, not Dive Insurance. Are you talking about one of their other insurance plans? Excerpting from their Dive Insurance handbook.

We have the Dan Master Policy. I wonder if it's different here in Canada. The insurer's potential risk is much lower in Canada than in the US since the vast majority of medical care is going to be covered by our various Provincial health plans. For example, when Mrs' Stoo had her legs (plural, since she broke the other one years ago skiing in Banff) broken, virtually all of the costs were covered by our Provincial health coverage. If I recall correctly, in both cases, we had to pay for an ambulance, and crutches. That was it. While we should technically have out of province supplemental insurance even within Canada, the reality is that the plans will settle up between them. When Kelly broke her leg in Alberta, it was still covered by our Ontario plan. Same, when she broke the other one in Quebec... no cost.

What does it cost an uninsured person to stick a rod in a leg with five breaks in the US? There was a Japanese tourist with a near identical break in his leg checking out of the Banff hospital when Kelly was. He was presented with a $10,000 bill, but in the US, what would that have cost?

Regardless. this conversation serves as a good reminder that we should likely all review our insurance coverage because it may well vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

 

[Perryed]

The United States is the ONLY advanced country where you can go bankrupt and lose absolutely everything due to medical bills. The price of universal health care would cost the average tax payer nothing when insurance costs from the private sector were eliminated.and applied to care for everyone. Health care for profit is never going to have a patients best interest at heart. They are profit driven.

 

[Stoo]

The United States is the ONLY advanced country where you can go bankrupt and lose absolutely everything due to medical bills.

That's a frequent topic up here. It's a bit baffling. Like the gun thing. I think you're so far down that private insurance wormhole that you'll never really be able to adopt "socialized" healthcare. It would mean closing down a massive industry.

Our system does leave something to be desired, but all in all it's about as good as it gets!

 

[DandyDon]

I wonder if it's different here in Canada.

Perhaps, but I was quoting from the handbook for Ontario. Again, Dive Insurance is not Trip Insurance, so it does not cover on the boat...
"COVERED DIVE or COVERED DIVING ACTIVITY means a recreational dive or diving while a scuba instructor, divemaster, underwater photographer, or while performing research under the auspices and following the diving safety guidelines of the Canadian Academy of Underwater Scientists (CAUS) or a group whose written diving research protocol meets or exceeds those of the CAUS. A dive begins upon entry into the water and ends upon exit from the water. A Covered Dive must begin while insurance is in force."

So, you have the cheapest Master plan, with no non-diving accident coverage, but then on additional review - the plans that do include non-diving accident coverage are only "while outside Home Country." You were still in Canada, right? Ok, well, I am glad that your DAN membership and Travlers Assist paid for the repatriation expenses so well, as you have zero DAN insurance coverage while on the boat. DAN does offer a cheaper one in some states, still does in Texas, that is much worse, and I'll virtually scream at friends that take it to save $10. That Master plan does offer a little more coverage than the Standard plan, not sold in Ontario, as DAN is trying to discontinue that one as respective insurance departments approve changes. You really might consider upgrading to the Preferred plan for $35/year more for much better coverage.

I think that I mentioned that when I finally hang up my fins and quit diving that I plan to keep my DAN membership for the Travelers Assist benefits. I travel alone usually and fear being disabled and short on coverage in Mexico, so I keep the Preferred plan year to year and take Trip insurance from a different source anytime I leave the US. Your choices may differ, but consider the upgrade.

Here is an interesting exchange that came up recently on a thread by a Canadian visiting Cozumel for the first time, with me telling him that DAN dive insurance was essential.

DAN dive insurance is essential as your Canadian medical coverage won't work there, and accidents happen. I take trip insurance for the same reason.

I think it's important to differentiate between Canadian universal medical coverage and Canadian medical coverage. The universal coverage won't work in Mexico but both my and my wife's Canadian medical coverage, provided by our employers, works just fine and we do not need DAN (and yes, that would include multiple rides in the chamber should that ever be needed).

Employer supplemental insurance varies from employer to employer. Mine offers emergency health care out of country for one month upon departure. It specifically excluded scuba-related accidents. You have to read the fine print for that point. In any event, I get DAN for that reason AND buy supplemental emergency medical care insurance should something occur one month after we depart Canada. I worked in the provincial health department and heard many, many sad stories of people who did not get out of country insurance. These included bankruptcy and hard decisions like taking a seriously injured child off life support.

 

[Stoo]

1. Don those quotes that you cite are filled with some odd terms. First of all, there is no such thing as "Canadian Universal Medical Coverage". Healthcare falls under the jurisdiction of the Provinces. Here in Ontario, we have OHIP... Ontario Health Insurance Plan. Each province has it's own plan, and while they're similar, they aren't identical. Technically, I need supplemental private insurance if I leave the Province, let alone the country. Having said that, we have personal experience where my wife was injured out of Ontario (Alberta and Quebec) and her care was covered, other than those minor costs I mentioned earlier, in both cases. I imagine the Provinces run a tab and somehow sort it out between them. Costs for given procedures are similar across the country.
2. There is also nothing called "Canadian Medical Coverage". I think what he's referring to is 3rd party insurance availlable through many employers, or purchased privately, or even available as a perk of a credit card. For example, my AMEX Gold card includes all that stuff. If I use it to bok a flight to Belize, then any issues that arrise while in Belize are covered... medical, trip interruption, probably even recompression therapy if needed.
   
3. Where we need supplemental insurance is when we leave the country, and visiting the US is likely the most egregious example of this. Until recently, had Kelly broken her leg in say, Florida, and wracked up a bill of $50000, without insurance, we would pay that bill. On returning, we would submit our bills to OHIP and would be reimbursed say $15K or whatever the schedule says is the going rate to fix a broken leg in Ontario. We'd be on the hook for the remaining $35K. That's where Kelly's private insurance, through her employer would kick in with it's out of country coverage. In my case, I am self employed, so I buy a small insurance plan, but only for out of country.
   
4. In the past few months, our new Trumpian Provincial Premier has ended the OHIP reimbursement for costs outside the country. (Apparently when we cross the border we cease to be citizens, but don't get me started.)
5. As for your comments about our DAN insurance not covering us, I can't explain this, other than that was 5 years so maybe something has changed, and I'll look into that.

 

[DandyDon]

Don those quotes that you cite are filled with some odd terms.

Ok, well, I didn't write any of it. I just quoted for the DAN dive insurance handbook for Ontario. See https://media.dan.org/cms/handbook-ca.pdf

TravelersAssist is what paid for her repatriation, and that is a benefit of membership, not dive insurance. See page 6.

Dive insurance coverage is on pages 16-19. I hope you'll consider upgrading.

COVERED DIVE or COVERED DIVING ACTIVITY is at the bottom of page 22, explaining that dive insurance does not cover you on the boat. Only in the water.

As for your comments about our DAN insurance not covering us, I can't explain this, other than that was 5 years so maybe something has changed, and I'll look into that.

Your membership covered repatriation, as I keep explaining.

 

[Shawn C]

1. Don those quotes that you cite are filled with some odd terms. First of all, there is no such thing as "Canadian Universal Medical Coverage". Healthcare falls under the jurisdiction of the Provinces. Here in Ontario, we have OHIP... Ontario Health Insurance Plan. Each province has it's own plan, and while they're similar, they aren't identical. Technically, I need supplemental private insurance if I leave the Province, let alone the country. Having said that, we have personal experience where my wife was injured out of Ontario (Alberta and Quebec) and her care was covered, other than those minor costs I mentioned earlier, in both cases. I imagine the Provinces run a tab and somehow sort it out between them. Costs for given procedures are similar across the country.
2. There is also nothing called "Canadian Medical Coverage". I think what he's referring to is 3rd party insurance availlable through many employers, or purchased privately, or even available as a perk of a credit card. For example, my AMEX Gold card includes all that stuff. If I use it to bok a flight to Belize, then any issues that arrise while in Belize are covered... medical, trip interruption, probably even recompression therapy if needed.
   
3. Where we need supplemental insurance is when we leave the country, and visiting the US is likely the most egregious example of this. Until recently, had Kelly broken her leg in say, Florida, and wracked up a bill of $50000, without insurance, we would pay that bill. On returning, we would submit our bills to OHIP and would be reimbursed say $15K or whatever the schedule says is the going rate to fix a broken leg in Ontario. We'd be on the hook for the remaining $35K. That's where Kelly's private insurance, through her employer would kick in with it's out of country coverage. In my case, I am self employed, so I buy a small insurance plan, but only for out of country.
   
4. In the past few months, our new Trumpian Provincial Premier has ended the OHIP reimbursement for costs outside the country. (Apparently when we cross the border we cease to be citizens, but don't get me started.)
5. As for your comments about our DAN insurance not covering us, I can't explain this, other than that was 5 years so maybe something has changed, and I'll look into that.

Universal Health Care is a concept and is intrinsic to our system in Canada. Canadian health care falls under the federal mandate, not provincial. It is administered by the provinces, with the exception of First Nations and Inuit peoples who are serviced federally. Universal health care is specially referenced by Health Canada and in the Canada Health Care Act which federally governs the provincial systems. It's also a term that is easily understood both inside and out of country - which was the point I was trying to make: there's the universal health care coverage that you have from your home province (or directly from the federal government) and then you have supplemental coverage that is specific to Canadians. I was reusing terms from earlier in the thread to illustrate the difference and wasn't attempting to label them accurately.

Re: your point #4: Have you looked at exactly how much coverage was lost? And what it covered? The answer is very little and not much, respectively. What was eliminated was out-of-country inpatient services up to $400 per day for high level of care (such as intensive care) as well up to $50 per day for emergency outpatient and doctor services. The actual insured amount would be a rounding error in most emergency health situations (e.g. $400 when it could cost you $10k for an overnight stay in a US hospital per night, plus the cost whatever other services and drugs you might need) and could never be relied on as a form of real coverage (in other words, you'd absolutely need your own out of country coverage - which would cover these costs). The province was spending a total of $9 Million in coverage per year (absolute peanuts) with an additional near $3 million in administration costs. Say what you will about Ford, and I'm no fan, but this was something that never made much sense to cover and, quite possibly, led some to believe that they had medical coverage out of country when, in fact, they had next to none.