LL and I had started some dialogue by email, and was showing signs that they were taking on board what had been posted, so I was going to close out on here, and deal directly. However in light of the fact that they have made at least one post under a false name (that of the girl who was actually injured), I don’t see the point in wasting more time with trying to resolve this matter. I don’t know which posters on here are real and which are puppets. On top of this some people with obvious commercial links to the operator are trying to dilute the message. I think i have been more than responsive in answering people reasonable questions regarding my original post
I’m not going to dissect Tons reply line by line and I do note they have set down an action plan to resolve some of these matters, but before signing off I would like to clarify the important points.
Firstly the fact remains that we raised the issue of a fire risk and it was ignored, I hope that in future they and other operators take notice when a customer makes a complaint or raises such matters. It doesn’t matter whether you are next to a major metropolis or on a distant island (probably more so on a distant island) there is no excuse for ignoring a reported risk. Similarly if you as a customer see something that is not right, then you should report it, maybe you will have a safe trip, but the next guy might not be so lucky.
I did not enter into direct communication with the owners from day 1 because I was under the impression as the dive shop staff had spoken to and were in communication with the owners that they would have been aware of this accident, and as we had concerns about a fire risk, they should make the first step. Also It seemed unlikely given the “history”, (i.e. we were told they weren’t going to change), that there would be any action if I did just email the owner. I emailed the message to DAN and PADI, and when there was still no reply from LL, despite the fact that DAN had a reply from them, I posted the same message online. I think due time was given. This lack of communication shows where the management / staff relationship was at.
I didn’t ask about smoking policy before the trip because, this is Indonesia and we appreciate there is a lot of smoking
The original post is the consensus of the whole group, but speaking for myself I can state that, I have lived in Asia for 16 years
I vacation regularly to Indonesia, at least once a year for the past 10 years
I do business in Indonesia; in fact I travel to Indonesia so often my passport usually holds a one year re entry visa, so I do have a pretty good understanding of the social attitude to smoking there.
(Not one of the group is an “Expat” we are all paying our way in Singapore, I think there is a possible perception that we were some hoity toity bunch of expats that expect 5 star treatment.
We organise a variety of trips, some are up in the higher $$ end, but some also involve us getting our hands dirty, renting a boat, renting tanks, loading the gear and putting the whole thing together). In fact for the duration of the stay the majority of us set up our own gear.
This may have been Indonesia but it is also a European run dive operation, as such you shouldn’t expect
Smoking near or in the compressor room
Smoking around the outboard engines / (open) fuel tanks
Smoking next to other peoples dive equipment – and let’s be clear here, the guy who was holding a cigarette near my BCD and made the boorish reply when commented on, was one of the European staff. In fact the European staff was smoking as heavily as the local staff, so this “it’s Indonesia” argument is an even thinner. (Most dives were only 10 -20 mins rides from shore to dive site, do you really need a smoke that badly!!). If it was me running this, and smoking was so endemic, I would ask that the European crew set an example.
So if you think the above smoking is acceptable within a dive operation then feel free to post, but to be honest you are going to be doing more harm than good.
It’s true the reaction of our group did escalate, but there were two sides to this. Imagine you find a dive guide who is working for the company you are paying money to, and he’s sat there got a cigarette in his hands next to a bcd. He was told to throw it away, his reply “so you make the rules now”. So maybe we were in Tons restaurant, but if his waiter dropped ash in your soup and you slammed a few ash trays around later, might it not be expected?
Compressor Layout
True the exhaust goes up into the hot room, and that can’t return. But the problem is, it’s a small room with two compressors simultaneously filling 8 tanks. Now if the tank started with 30 bar and was topped up to 200 bar, that’s 15,000 litres (8 tanks) of air to be drawn in. On top of that there is additional airflow, to give a positive flow of air into the compressor room, and up into the hot room. So that is probably 20,000litres of air being drawn in through the doorway during a typical fill. The drive crew have a relax area about 6m in front of the doorway where they sit smoking. Air comes from somewhere and a volume like that will be pulled in from surrounding area. True the breeze will push the smoke away when it is running down the side of the building, but not when there is no breeze, and when the breeze is towards the building, (possibly why there was a strong smell of smoke the first day) a lot will go that way, especially as you are creating a positive flow into the room. (I don’t think there was a rule for only filling when there’s a southerly blowing
). I’m not saying the tanks tasted of tobacco, but there is a significant risk of the tanks taking on smoke, Tobacco smoke not only is bad for the consumer, but condenses inside and forms acid which will ultimately damage the tanks. Filter or not, this is preventable by moving the relax area, why wouldn’t you do it?
Also it would make sense to have rinse basins for feet before entering the gear area to prevent the build up of sand. This would greatly reduce the mess.
As I mentioned above there have been a lot of attempts to dilute the message and insinuate I don’t know what we’re talking about or that this was false. So far I haven’t seen a direct reply to my posts, and secondly some of these well meaning rebuttals are almost too comical, are you really helping LL?
Good bye and thank you for listening
I’m not going to dissect Tons reply line by line and I do note they have set down an action plan to resolve some of these matters, but before signing off I would like to clarify the important points.
Firstly the fact remains that we raised the issue of a fire risk and it was ignored, I hope that in future they and other operators take notice when a customer makes a complaint or raises such matters. It doesn’t matter whether you are next to a major metropolis or on a distant island (probably more so on a distant island) there is no excuse for ignoring a reported risk. Similarly if you as a customer see something that is not right, then you should report it, maybe you will have a safe trip, but the next guy might not be so lucky.
I did not enter into direct communication with the owners from day 1 because I was under the impression as the dive shop staff had spoken to and were in communication with the owners that they would have been aware of this accident, and as we had concerns about a fire risk, they should make the first step. Also It seemed unlikely given the “history”, (i.e. we were told they weren’t going to change), that there would be any action if I did just email the owner. I emailed the message to DAN and PADI, and when there was still no reply from LL, despite the fact that DAN had a reply from them, I posted the same message online. I think due time was given. This lack of communication shows where the management / staff relationship was at.
I didn’t ask about smoking policy before the trip because, this is Indonesia and we appreciate there is a lot of smoking
The original post is the consensus of the whole group, but speaking for myself I can state that, I have lived in Asia for 16 years
I vacation regularly to Indonesia, at least once a year for the past 10 years
I do business in Indonesia; in fact I travel to Indonesia so often my passport usually holds a one year re entry visa, so I do have a pretty good understanding of the social attitude to smoking there.
(Not one of the group is an “Expat” we are all paying our way in Singapore, I think there is a possible perception that we were some hoity toity bunch of expats that expect 5 star treatment.
We organise a variety of trips, some are up in the higher $$ end, but some also involve us getting our hands dirty, renting a boat, renting tanks, loading the gear and putting the whole thing together). In fact for the duration of the stay the majority of us set up our own gear.
This may have been Indonesia but it is also a European run dive operation, as such you shouldn’t expect
Smoking near or in the compressor room
Smoking around the outboard engines / (open) fuel tanks
Smoking next to other peoples dive equipment – and let’s be clear here, the guy who was holding a cigarette near my BCD and made the boorish reply when commented on, was one of the European staff. In fact the European staff was smoking as heavily as the local staff, so this “it’s Indonesia” argument is an even thinner. (Most dives were only 10 -20 mins rides from shore to dive site, do you really need a smoke that badly!!). If it was me running this, and smoking was so endemic, I would ask that the European crew set an example.
So if you think the above smoking is acceptable within a dive operation then feel free to post, but to be honest you are going to be doing more harm than good.
It’s true the reaction of our group did escalate, but there were two sides to this. Imagine you find a dive guide who is working for the company you are paying money to, and he’s sat there got a cigarette in his hands next to a bcd. He was told to throw it away, his reply “so you make the rules now”. So maybe we were in Tons restaurant, but if his waiter dropped ash in your soup and you slammed a few ash trays around later, might it not be expected?
Compressor Layout
True the exhaust goes up into the hot room, and that can’t return. But the problem is, it’s a small room with two compressors simultaneously filling 8 tanks. Now if the tank started with 30 bar and was topped up to 200 bar, that’s 15,000 litres (8 tanks) of air to be drawn in. On top of that there is additional airflow, to give a positive flow of air into the compressor room, and up into the hot room. So that is probably 20,000litres of air being drawn in through the doorway during a typical fill. The drive crew have a relax area about 6m in front of the doorway where they sit smoking. Air comes from somewhere and a volume like that will be pulled in from surrounding area. True the breeze will push the smoke away when it is running down the side of the building, but not when there is no breeze, and when the breeze is towards the building, (possibly why there was a strong smell of smoke the first day) a lot will go that way, especially as you are creating a positive flow into the room. (I don’t think there was a rule for only filling when there’s a southerly blowing
). I’m not saying the tanks tasted of tobacco, but there is a significant risk of the tanks taking on smoke, Tobacco smoke not only is bad for the consumer, but condenses inside and forms acid which will ultimately damage the tanks. Filter or not, this is preventable by moving the relax area, why wouldn’t you do it?Also it would make sense to have rinse basins for feet before entering the gear area to prevent the build up of sand. This would greatly reduce the mess.
As I mentioned above there have been a lot of attempts to dilute the message and insinuate I don’t know what we’re talking about or that this was false. So far I haven’t seen a direct reply to my posts, and secondly some of these well meaning rebuttals are almost too comical, are you really helping LL?
Good bye and thank you for listening
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