Lost Buddy Marker

[LiteHedded]

Consider it done. I'll drop 1 wrench, 1 screwdriver, and 1 backup light. Of course, my pockets would be nearly empty after that!

good thing you carry at least two of all those things

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Not real big fan of this (sorry),but having an arrow pointing in the wrong direction can never be justified. If a lost buddy situation occurs,there could be as an example a silt out,now things have been complicated because of navigation arrows are pointing the wrong way,hence innocent parties could become victims. The accident at Madison that happened quite a few years ago was complicated by a line arrow pointing the wrong way in a silt out,and downloaded dive computers showed this navigation faux pas contributed to the accident. When something goes wrong ie lost buddy I don't think it is ever a good idea to change conventional wisdom in reference to navigation arrows.

I would tend to agree. Now, granted I'm very new at cave diving ... but from my perspective, arrows have a specific meaning and those should not be changed for a buddy separation for the very reason you pointed too ... it wouldn't mean the same thing to someone else, and could contribute to someone else's accident.

I see interesting ideas on what to do if there is a lost buddy scenario such as wet note paper or back up lights,but I think prevention is very important. Very often you see people advertise on the internet they need a buddy for that weekend,and in which case they get together and do a dive. How much planning and discussion go into the dive,and include what to do in a seperation scenario? When I guide at a couple sites I add specific instructions for a buddy seperation so it is included in the dive plan. I have been cave diving for 15 years,and there has only been a couple instances where there has been a buddy seperation,but it was a temporary inconvenience because of predive planning and awareness.

Cave or otherwise, whenever I dive with a new buddy ... even one who I know has far more experience under the conditions we're diving than I do ... I will want to have MORE predive discussion than I normally would with people I'm familiar diving with. This is particularly to go over contingencies ... because that's where it's most important to be on the same page. Whenever things go south, the strength of a team involves a level of trust in what each other will do. With an unfamiliar diver, good communication before the dive is the only way to establish that trust.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I prefer the drop the light immediately because its an immediate sign to my buddy that I've found the line (i.e. he knows I'm not off line in a siltout somewhere), it provides a beacon (seeing another light in a cave when you're alone would be reassuring and you'd go check it out) and it increases the odds of another team assisting more quickly.

If I have 20 minutes of available search time, but wait til I'm at the end of that to drop the light, that's 20 potential minutes another team may have been alerted and searching as well.

That's my thinking as well ... it's also generally going to be the case that your buddy is likely to begin his (or her) search at the last place you were together, which would be in the vicinity of where you drop the light.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[piikki]

I am certainly not disagreeing with what’s being said. My mind is not being made about the deal at the moment. I am trying to work out the kinks for what would be the best plan for me. I would like to find one that would work regardless of situation, so there would be no “I thought you had because” situations…

I am trying to decide about the relative benefits of the light as a marker/beacon and the time it takes to set it up and the hassles with the multiple messages and possible drama with third parties when the separation is short lived but the light was dumped far from where the team re-united etc. (Probably over-thinking this anyway )

The light is definitely superior as a marker except in certain condition and if the location is very wrong. It does not take too long to set it up, especially if you have correct msgs ready. However, it’s the first moments of separation that are the most crucial in most cases and your primary light trumps most back ups easily. Will your fidgeting with the stuff take away from the precious moments that would give you the best chance to locate your buddy right away?

Or will playing around with the light+messages during the search be a distraction to the search considering setting up line search? If your buddy cannot see the light (silt out), they’d just as likely run into your spool that is deployed from the line? Or your arrow that you dropped.

Now if you had other teams deployed for the search "by light" only, how are you going to call them off? Just by picking up the light? Leaving message when you pick the light? You might not even know they are searching. If you drop the light when you exit and your buddy has already exited it's naturally even worse for anybody else looking but then at least you still believed you needed help

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am certainly not disagreeing with what’s being said. My mind is not being made about the deal at the moment. I am trying to work out the kinks for what would be the best plan for me. I would like to find one that would work regardless of situation, so there would be no “I thought you had because” situations…

I am trying to decide about the relative benefits of the light as a marker/beacon and the time it takes to set it up and the hassles with the multiple messages and possible drama with third parties when the separation is short lived but the light was dumped far from where the team re-united etc. (Probably over-thinking this anyway )

The light is definitely superior as a marker except in certain condition and if the location is very wrong. It does not take too long to set it up, especially if you have correct msgs ready. However, it’s the first moments of separation that are the most crucial in most cases and your primary light trumps most back ups easily. Will your fidgeting with the stuff take away from the precious moments that would give you the best chance to locate your buddy right away?

Or will playing around with the light+messages during the search be a distraction to the search considering setting up line search? If your buddy cannot see the light (silt out), they’d just as likely run into your spool that is deployed from the line? Or your arrow that you dropped.

Now if you had other teams deployed for the search "by light" only, how are you going to call them off? Just by picking up the light? Leaving message when you pick the light? You might not even know they are searching. If you drop the light when you exit and your buddy has already exited it's naturally even worse for anybody else looking but then at least you still believed you needed help

Well, let's look at this from the beginning. What do you currently do in a lost buddy scenarioi? Here's what I was taught ...

1. You place a cookie on the line. Then search up and down the line. If no success, return to your cookie.

2. Deploy your safety reel and search off the line.

3. If no success, and based on available gas considerations, you exit the cave.

At step 1, dropping a light doesn't take any time at all ... five seconds at most to unclip the light from your harness and clip it to the line alongside your cookie. Leaving a message clipped to it might take an extra half-minute or so, assuming you can get to your wetnotes readily and have a pre-written message available.

Disadvantage ... the extra time it takes.

Advantage ... (1) an unambiguous message and response if your buddy should show up at that place while you're searching on the line ... (2) a "beacon" for your buddy to swim to if they've somehow gotten disoriented but are close enough to see the light ... (3) a clear indication to any other divers who happen by that a diver has gone missing.

To my concern, the pros outweigh the cons by quite a lot ... but that is assuming that adequate communication occurred before the dive to give me confidence that my buddy will respond to the light and message as I expect them to ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cave Diver]

I am certainly not disagreeing with what’s being said. My mind is not being made about the deal at the moment. I am trying to work out the kinks for what would be the best plan for me. I would like to find one that would work regardless of situation, so there would be no “I thought you had because” situations…

That was my whole intent. To foster a discussion and get people thinking. If something comes of it that is useful to the community at large, great. But if it's only useful to you and your buddy (or mine), that's fine as well.

I am trying to decide about the relative benefits of the light as a marker/beacon and the time it takes to set it up and the hassles with the multiple messages and possible drama with third parties when the separation is short lived but the light was dumped far from where the team re-united etc. (Probably over-thinking this anyway )

The light is definitely superior as a marker except in certain condition and if the location is very wrong. It does not take too long to set it up, especially if you have correct msgs ready. However, it’s the first moments of separation that are the most crucial in most cases and your primary light trumps most back ups easily. Will your fidgeting with the stuff take away from the precious moments that would give you the best chance to locate your buddy right away?

I'd have to wager that I could turn my light on, deploy it and clip it to the line in ~30 seconds. It's not something that takes considerable amount of time. Pulling out wetnotes and leaving a note would take a bit longer, but I think it better to do this while you still have the most available gas, and making sure it's done.

Placing the light in clear water closest to the last known buddy position might not ensure you find the buddy there, but it would also serve as a clear marker to you from a distance where your search started.

Or will playing around with the light+messages during the search be a distraction to the search considering setting up line search? If your buddy cannot see the light (silt out), they’d just as likely run into your spool that is deployed from the line? Or your arrow that you dropped.

In a silt out, will they know that the arrow is yours, or that the line isnt someone elses jump leading off the mainline? A light would be immediately recognizable as out of place, and a sure sign that they are heading the right way IMO.

Now if you had other teams deployed for the search "by light" only, how are you going to call them off? Just by picking up the light? Leaving message when you pick the light? You might not even know they are searching. If you drop the light when you exit and your buddy has already exited it's naturally even worse for anybody else looking but then at least you still believed you needed help

They would call themselves off when they reached turn pressure. If the buddy is found and team is reunited on the surface, I'd ask another team going in to pull my light. By this point everyone on the surface would be aware of the situation and they teams left in the system would have minimal runtime remaining.

Worse case scenario for someone still looking after buddy is found is that they didnt get to do their planned dive. If they choose to search, then they already decided it was worth blowing off.

These are good points for debate Piikki.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

What do you currently do in a lost buddy scenarioi? Here's what I was taught ...

1. You place a cookie on the line. Then search up and down the line. If no success, return to your cookie.

A cookie? I was taught an arrow... What if you get disoriented and forget which direction is out after your lost buddy search?

 

[Selachimorpha]

Not a cave diver but still very interesting reading this discussion. I know that some of you have GUE training, don't you guys normally dive in a team of 3? I'm just slightly confused because everyone is talking about them and their buddy, but in a team of 3 where would the 3rd person come into it (assuming they were still with you). Do they go off and search the same place you do or do you split up?
Like I said, no cave training, just curious, correct me if I'm wrong about the 3 people, I just thought I read that somewhere.

 

[Cave Diver]

Not a cave diver but still very interesting reading this discussion. I know that some of you have GUE training, don't you guys normally dive in a team of 3? I'm just slightly confused because everyone is talking about them and their buddy, but in a team of 3 where would the 3rd person come into it (assuming they were still with you). Do they go off and search the same place you do or do you split up?
Like I said, no cave training, just curious, correct me if I'm wrong about the 3 people, I just thought I read that somewhere.

Standard teams are either 2 or 3 people. If you have more people than that, you break them up into teams of 2 or 3. 4 would be 2 teams of 2 people, 5 would be a 3 and 2, etc.

There are pros and cons to teams of 2 and 3, which are usually worked out before the dive.

 

[Cave Diver]

A cookie? I was taught an arrow... What if you get disoriented and forget which direction is out after your lost buddy search?

What if you're disoriented before you place the arrow because your buddy is lost and you're stressed and you put it facing the wrong direction?