Gareth,
Do you know Graham perhaps? My Own Out of GAS Experience. While exceedingly rare, having a first stage fail shut is a possibility. Is that what you experienced as well when you had individual twins?
Looking to start diving in sidemount or doubles. Which one first?
- Thread starter SWiggs
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Do you know Graham perhaps? My Own Out of GAS Experience. While exceedingly rare, having a first stage fail shut is a possibility. Is that what you experienced as well when you had individual twins?
My issue was a deep(iso) dive, in an area of strong current. A prerequisite was a required return to the shot at the end of the dive.
I got grit and shell under the diaphram on one of the crawl's. On the gas switch it immediately became evident. During the return we found that the bottom line had been cut. Which further delayed our return, it resulted on a less direct and more exposed return swim to the shot. To extend my gas I went on to my buddies long hose early. The current (and all the divers on the shot) snapped the waister line holding the shot in place, so by the time we got back to it (late), there was no shot. We did the only thing we could and popped a DSMB and ascended. I used my aggressive plan to get shallow (off the back gas) my buddy decompressed normally, finally catching up with me on the shallower stops. We had to wait a long time for the boat to find us.
It became a dive from hell, compromised breathing gas - at the furthest point out form the exit point, lost bottom line, no shot, no team, no trapeze, no access to the safety gas, separation from the boat, strong current, aggressive decompression plan, over stay plan.
After that on anything reasonably adventurous, I only dived manifold sets - now I only dive CCR.
Any one thing would have been a non issue, the problems just kept coming, we just kept working the problems as they hit us. "Keep Calm and Carry On"
Gareth
W W Meixner
Banned
W W Meixner
Banned
Professor...
Is there a difference between...extending ones range...and extended range as defined by TDI...SDI...ERDI...probably...
Check the NASA definition of extended range...it is probably different again...what about extending ones range with more fuel...or larger fuel capacity...nothing at all to do with air...depth...time...deco...
Your spelling has improved...ability to communicate without cursing...not so much...
If you do not like the channel...watch something else...
W W Meixner
Banned
...
thx for the concern but its fine ......your health better now ? quoting nasa now ? oh boy
W W Meixner
Banned
@SWiggs The future plans you stated really sound more like near term plans, to me. Your plan carries you through Intro to Tech. What are you FUTURE plans? It sounds like you intend to advance further, into decompression diving, yes?
In your deco diving, is your interest caves, wrecks, or just really long dives at recreational depths in open water?
If you are interested in caves or deeper wrecks, then (just my opinion) the first thing you need to really do is decide whether a CCR is in your future. Do the research on that, so you can make an informed decision. If you decide that a rebreather is in your future at some point, then the sooner you switch over, the better. And if caves or deep wrecks in on your To Do list, then a CCR is probably where you want to be aiming.
Learning to dive a CCR is a LOT like starting completely over from the beginning of diving. If you're going to do it eventually, in order to achieve your long-term goals, then the sooner you switch over, the sooner you can achieve your long-term goals.
That is not to be construed as trying to rush anything. If you long-term goals need a CCR, and you need, say 200 hours on CCR before it is reasonable to start executing on those long-term goals, then the sooner you start, the sooner you'll have those 200 hours.
I did OC tech training up through TDI Trimix. I switched to CCR a bit over a year ago. The training path for that is, in short, MOD1, MOD2, and MOD3. I am currently at the MOD1 level and trying to schedule MOD2 training for as soon as COVID permits. My long-term plans require being at the MOD3 level eventually.
My OC tech training took me a total of almost 3 years, from the start of Intro to Tech to the end of Trimix. Then a 6 month gap until I started CCR training. If I had made the jump to CCR back at the start of my tech training, I would be 3+ years closer to my long-term goals right now...
If CCR is in your future, but you feel like you simply cannot afford to make that jump right now, well, one, it does not have to be as expensive as some people suggest. I bought my CCR used, for about half of what a new one costs. I have a couple of friends who have bought used Hollis Prism2 units in the last 6 months for an average of $3k (needing O2 sensors, a service, and then ready to dive). So, if you can't afford that right now, I would suggest giving real thought to saving your money for a bit, until you can. It does not have to be THAT much more expensive that getting into OC tech. Especially for someone planning to do both doubles and sidemount.
If you decide that CCR is not in your future, well then, I have dived both doubles and sidemount. When people talk about "boat diving with sidemount is just fine", my sense is that most of those people are talking about boat diving from boats that have relatively easy entry/exit and mostly in water that I would consider to be pretty flat. A lot of my diving is in NC where the entry is not as easy and the exit can be a fins-on ladder in 5 foot seas. I went for a week once, with a buddy diving sidemount. In those conditions, sidemount did not look very fun at all. I was quite happy to be in double steels (backmount). But, if you're going to be diving in fairly flat water or caves, then sidemount is not an issue. Some people like to say that SM is slow to gear up and get in. My experience is that once you have done it some and developed some proficiency it is not enough slower to matter. The problem is mostly people who jumped into SM because "it's cool" and they are not proficient and they DO hold everyone else up.
I think SM and BM doubles are both tools that have their place. Which is better just depends on the diver and what they intend to do. That said, personally, as the weight of doubles is not a problem for me, the only time I would personally see a benefit to sidemount (for me) is if my diving were going to involve getting through tight spots where BM doubles would not fit. Which pretty much means caves (for me). I'm not interested in going anywhere inside a wreck that is too tight for BM doubles to fit.
I have no cave training. My understanding is that you have to (or should, anyway) have full cave training and a fair bit of experience in caves before you start trying to go through spots that are too tight for BM doubles. And, well, for ME, I intend to pursue cave training eventually. But, even if I was not already on a CCR, by the time I was doing cave dives that were that "technical" (I guess? as to require sidemount), I would want to be on a CCR anyway. In other words, I would never see myself doing a cave dive on OC that required sidemount. And, in terms of your original post, that means that I would personally not have any reason to say "sidemount is really the best tool for me, for this dive."
I did sidemount for a while, but it was really only because I'm an OW instructor and I like to be well-rounded as a diver and at least have some direct knowledge and experience of all aspects of scuba that I can get.
Lastly, if you decide to push ahead with BM or SM, I would guess that you should go in with the realization that whatever you think you're going to do next could totally change after you get down the road a ways with whatever you start with. I.e. there is a reasonable chance that if you start with one, your plan to do it for a while and then switch to the other could totally change before you ever actually start with the other option.
ps. I agree with someone earlier. If you don't need to fit through restrictions that preclude backmount, then not having back mounted cylinders is just wasting space.
In your deco diving, is your interest caves, wrecks, or just really long dives at recreational depths in open water?
If you are interested in caves or deeper wrecks, then (just my opinion) the first thing you need to really do is decide whether a CCR is in your future. Do the research on that, so you can make an informed decision. If you decide that a rebreather is in your future at some point, then the sooner you switch over, the better. And if caves or deep wrecks in on your To Do list, then a CCR is probably where you want to be aiming.
Learning to dive a CCR is a LOT like starting completely over from the beginning of diving. If you're going to do it eventually, in order to achieve your long-term goals, then the sooner you switch over, the sooner you can achieve your long-term goals.
That is not to be construed as trying to rush anything. If you long-term goals need a CCR, and you need, say 200 hours on CCR before it is reasonable to start executing on those long-term goals, then the sooner you start, the sooner you'll have those 200 hours.
I did OC tech training up through TDI Trimix. I switched to CCR a bit over a year ago. The training path for that is, in short, MOD1, MOD2, and MOD3. I am currently at the MOD1 level and trying to schedule MOD2 training for as soon as COVID permits. My long-term plans require being at the MOD3 level eventually.
My OC tech training took me a total of almost 3 years, from the start of Intro to Tech to the end of Trimix. Then a 6 month gap until I started CCR training. If I had made the jump to CCR back at the start of my tech training, I would be 3+ years closer to my long-term goals right now...
If CCR is in your future, but you feel like you simply cannot afford to make that jump right now, well, one, it does not have to be as expensive as some people suggest. I bought my CCR used, for about half of what a new one costs. I have a couple of friends who have bought used Hollis Prism2 units in the last 6 months for an average of $3k (needing O2 sensors, a service, and then ready to dive). So, if you can't afford that right now, I would suggest giving real thought to saving your money for a bit, until you can. It does not have to be THAT much more expensive that getting into OC tech. Especially for someone planning to do both doubles and sidemount.
If you decide that CCR is not in your future, well then, I have dived both doubles and sidemount. When people talk about "boat diving with sidemount is just fine", my sense is that most of those people are talking about boat diving from boats that have relatively easy entry/exit and mostly in water that I would consider to be pretty flat. A lot of my diving is in NC where the entry is not as easy and the exit can be a fins-on ladder in 5 foot seas. I went for a week once, with a buddy diving sidemount. In those conditions, sidemount did not look very fun at all. I was quite happy to be in double steels (backmount). But, if you're going to be diving in fairly flat water or caves, then sidemount is not an issue. Some people like to say that SM is slow to gear up and get in. My experience is that once you have done it some and developed some proficiency it is not enough slower to matter. The problem is mostly people who jumped into SM because "it's cool" and they are not proficient and they DO hold everyone else up.
I think SM and BM doubles are both tools that have their place. Which is better just depends on the diver and what they intend to do. That said, personally, as the weight of doubles is not a problem for me, the only time I would personally see a benefit to sidemount (for me) is if my diving were going to involve getting through tight spots where BM doubles would not fit. Which pretty much means caves (for me). I'm not interested in going anywhere inside a wreck that is too tight for BM doubles to fit.
I have no cave training. My understanding is that you have to (or should, anyway) have full cave training and a fair bit of experience in caves before you start trying to go through spots that are too tight for BM doubles. And, well, for ME, I intend to pursue cave training eventually. But, even if I was not already on a CCR, by the time I was doing cave dives that were that "technical" (I guess? as to require sidemount), I would want to be on a CCR anyway. In other words, I would never see myself doing a cave dive on OC that required sidemount. And, in terms of your original post, that means that I would personally not have any reason to say "sidemount is really the best tool for me, for this dive."
I did sidemount for a while, but it was really only because I'm an OW instructor and I like to be well-rounded as a diver and at least have some direct knowledge and experience of all aspects of scuba that I can get.
Lastly, if you decide to push ahead with BM or SM, I would guess that you should go in with the realization that whatever you think you're going to do next could totally change after you get down the road a ways with whatever you start with. I.e. there is a reasonable chance that if you start with one, your plan to do it for a while and then switch to the other could totally change before you ever actually start with the other option.
ps. I agree with someone earlier. If you don't need to fit through restrictions that preclude backmount, then not having back mounted cylinders is just wasting space.
MichaelMc
Working toward Cenotes
The number of boats/seas/ladders I'm happy about climbing by rig type:
wearing sidemount < wearing backmount < after diiching sidemount tanks on drop line(s)
Climbing up after ditching my tanks is less harrowing. But it takes longer overall.
There are sidemount rebreathers. The Speaking Sidemount podcast has discussed several. Sidemount Pros — Podcast.
wearing sidemount < wearing backmount < after diiching sidemount tanks on drop line(s)
Climbing up after ditching my tanks is less harrowing. But it takes longer overall.
There are sidemount rebreathers. The Speaking Sidemount podcast has discussed several. Sidemount Pros — Podcast.
My experience was quite the opposite. I did AN+DP+sidemount last month - started in BM doubles, and I literally couldn't manage the bloody things. I'm fully comfortable in single tank backmount and jacket BCD, but with a backplate, wing, manifolded pair of Al-11s on my back and a slung deco tank (either an Al-11 or an Al-5.5), I could swim around okay-ish, but trying to hover was an exercise in futility - a few seconds after stopping fin movements I would invariably find myself flipped over. I was like balancing on top of a greased-up beachball. Super frustrating, and my air consumption was ridiculous. Switched to sidemount after two days of skill dives and it was night and day - one pool session to get the harness adjusted and I had no trouble holding trim, hovering, swimming backwards, etc, and my air consumption normalized as well. I'm not touching backmount doubles ever again; any dive where I would need more than four tanks is going to wait until I progress to CCR.
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