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DA Aquamaster:
But the logically inevitable question is what is the practical advantage of a balanced second stage when used with a balanced first stage where the IP is for all intents and purposes constant. The logical answer is that there really isn't one as an unbalanced second stage like the R190 or R390 can be set to breathe very well when it is on a balanced first stage like the Mk 16.

While cracking pressure pressure can be adjusted to be the same for a balanced or unbalance 2nd, doesn't the lighter spring associated with a balanced 2nd stage result in lower WOB. I'm using both R109 Adjustables and R109 Balanced Adjustables and the size and compression resistance is readily apparent when examined side by side.

I prefer the unbalanced adjustable in heavy current situations as it seems to be more resistant to freeflow initiated by current against the diaphram.

Both of these seconds are being used on Mk5s and Mk10s.
 
Hi
Apprantly, you could purchase apeks regs on their website at a cheaper price n they honour their warranty too. That's why aussie divers buy apeks regs online straight from them.. I don't know why everyone is so reluctant to buy straight from them?Weird.

Sometimes, people get too caught up in the Brand race and end up paying more for the Brand when something else is of the same quality. Of course Apeks regs are top of the line not becuz of the Brand but becuz of the quality. The rest that i tried was roughly the same despite being scubapro, aqualung....etc etc.. Anyway scubapro and aqualung regs are made mostly in mexico. We can all go down to mexico to get cheaper regs... Buy it straight from the factory..
 
awap:
While cracking pressure pressure can be adjusted to be the same for a balanced or unbalance 2nd, doesn't the lighter spring associated with a balanced 2nd stage result in lower WOB. I'm using both R109 Adjustables and R109 Balanced Adjustables and the size and compression resistance is readily apparent when examined side by side.

I prefer the unbalanced adjustable in heavy current situations as it seems to be more resistant to freeflow initiated by current against the diaphram.

Both of these seconds are being used on Mk5s and Mk10s.

In any second stage the downstream force of the intermediate pressure air from the first stage pressing against the soft seat has to be overcome to get the soft seat to seal against the orifice.

In a standard unbalanced downstream demand valve second stage like the Adjustable (109) second stage the pressure needed to overcome the downstream force and close the valve comes soley from the mainspring in the second stage which presses the seat and poppet assembly upstream against the airflow. So a heavy mainspring is required.

The Scubapro Adjustable (109) regulator was designed in part to enable the user to adapt the reg to differing conditions (such as diving into a current, in unusual positions, etc) but also to provide a solution to the potential change in IP by enabling the spring pressure, and in turn cracking effort, to be increased or decreased to compensate for the change in downstream force.

Balancing the second stage poppet was a slightly more complex but much more elegant and fully automatic way to address the problem with changes in IP. In a balanced second stage, air is allowed to pass through the seat and poppet assembly to a balance chamber on the other side of the poppet. The IP air then can press both ways against the poppet and essentially cancel out the downstream force and virtually eliminate the effect of any change in intermediate pressure.

Since the downstream force is cancelled by a near equal force on the balance chamber side of the poppet, a much less powerful mainspring can be used.

However, the important thing to remember is that the total forces involved are still the same as they would be in an unbalanced second stage, the difference is just that in a balanced second stage, the spring force is augmented by an assist from the IP air acting on the poppet on the balance chamber side.

On center balanced designs like the Air 1, D300, D350 and D400 the air enters the poppet assembly in the middle and pushes both ways and these first stages have an extremely light mainspring as very little spring pressure is required for stable and balanced operation.

In practice, balanced second stages of both designs are never totally balanced as there is still a requirement for the poppet to open and vent excess pressure in the event the HP seat fails. So the area of the balance chamber is always slightly smaller than the area of the orifice to provide a very slight downstream action to the valve.

The various balanced poppets used in Balanced Adjustable have normally presented less resistance to air flowing through the air barrel than the various unbalanced poppets used in the Adjustable. The current S-wing poppet used in the Balanced Adjustable (as well as every other balanced second stage made by Scubapro ecept the X650 which uses a shorter version of the S-wing poppet) is quite steamlined and offers the potential for increased flow rates compared to the dura poppet used in the Adjustable. That, in combination with the elimination of any effects from changing IP accounts for a lower WOB.

As for freeflow resistance differneces, there are several varaibles to consider.

SP has also used about 4 different types of rubber purge covers on the 109 second stage and they vary somewhat in their resistance to current induced freeflow.

The levers on some of the oldest 109's also have a slightly different profile (and need to be changed if they are upgraded to BA status.)

The increased spring pressure on the Adjustable tends to increase the amount of set that occurs in the soft seat, particularly if the storage key is not used, and this inevitably means the cracking effort is increased as the knob is adjusted in to eliminate the slight freeflow that occurs as the seat takes a deeper set.

Then there is the effect of the decrease in IP that occurs. If the second stage is adjusted to a suitable cracking effort at the beginining of the dive and not adjusted again, the cracking effort (and freeflow reistance) will increase as the dive progresses as the IP will fall 4-8 psi during the dive as neither the MK 5 nor Mk 10 were perfectly balanced designs. The balanced adjustable on the other hand will maintain virtually the same cracking effort throughout the same dive.

Another possible difference is orifice adjustment which affects lever height and in turn both airflow and freeflow resistance in a current.
 
DA Aquamaster:
A Mk 16 S550 would offer no real advantage over a properly tuned Mk 16 R190, it would just cost about $110 more.

I hope you are talking about at the surface...
 
timmy's are better then any angle and wgp i won't even bother
 
uberspeed:
Would a balanced second stage really do much if your first stage is functioning as it should?
Yes
uberspeed:
I suppose I don't see why a second stage really needs to be balanced if your first stage is. Perhaps at greater depths it makes a difference?
Very large difference at depth. Take a closer read at what DA said earlier in this thread. The balanced LP seat reduces the cracking resistance more and more as you go.

there is a pic below that may help a little or confuse even more. It shows how the air passes past the cone(1) and the rubber seat(2) through the poppet valve (3) and then stops at the counter balance cylinder. This creates a little bit of back pressure so to speak to reduce the cracking resistance. Used in the S550 and up...
Hope this helps
 
uberspeed:
Would a balanced second stage really do much if your first stage is functioning as it should? I suppose I don't see why a second stage really needs to be balanced if your first stage is. Perhaps at greater depths it makes a difference?

If the IP is stable in the first stage then, no - a balanced reg will not perform significantly better than a non-balanced reg as the forces required to open the valve will still be equal as the IP, and consequently the downstream force, does not change.

Depth makes no difference either as the IP will increase by the same amount as the ambient pressure and the relative difference between IP and ambient pressure will still be the same whether you are at the surface or at 250 ft.

This assumes however that all other things are equal and often, things are not equal when comparing an unbalanced second stage to a balanced second stage. Quality of construction and materials is one thing for example that may vary as unbalanced second stages are often designed for a lower priced market and the same degree of quality may not be there compared to a higher end second stage.

The SP Adjustable (109) second stage and the Balanced Adjustable (156) second stage are one of the examples where the second stages share a very high degree of case and parts commonality with the only differences being the spring, the poppet and the addition of a balance chamber inside the air barrel of the Balanced Adjustable. They share the same size orifice and have very similar flow rates despite one being balanced and one being non balanced. What small differences may exist would be due to the slightly different shape of the poppets and the affect that would have on flow rates.

But a high degree of parts commonality is not always required for regulators to have comparable flow rates. As long as two of the things being equal when comparing regulators are orifice size and the working range of the poppet, then flow rates can be very similar even on vastly different second stages.

But again, I would not hesitate to use a well designed high quality unbalanced second stage of traditional downstream design on a balanced first stage as there would be little if any advantage in using a balanced second stage - all other things being equal.

As another example, SP's original non balanced downstream design High Performance (080) second stage could deliver the same performance and low cracking effort as the top of the line (at that time) Balanced Adjustable as long as they were both used with a balanced first stage.

The significance of this is that the same basic but well engineered poppet and valve body used in the High Performance (080) continues to be used in the R190 and R390 and they are capable of delivering the same excellent performance when properly tuned.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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