LONG post about a dispute with my LDS

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Chris,

I have come late to his trend and have not read everyone else's comments but did read your initial post and most of your follow up posts which leads me to believe that things have gotten heated.

Here is my gut reaction....

The customer is always right. And even if the customer is wrong, it is the businesses responsiblity to make the customer feel like they are right.

My assessment is based on a few read between the line things. I can't believe your wife called three times to be told that her tanks were not filled and that was holding up the picking up of gear. A diveshop without tanks to rent is a no dive shop I would want to deal with. If I get the urge to pick up a tank and do a dive some lovely summer afternoon, I want a shop that has plenty of filled tanks on hand.

Secondly, they should never argue with you that fins don't come in a particular color, style or design. Everybody knows that if a customer saw it in a catalog then it at least bears investigating. I ordered a Citizen Hyperaqualand watch from a dive shop that was not even a citizen dealer. I told them I wanted it and they made it happen because I was a good customer and they were being customer friendly. If I had gone to Diver's Direct to order it, they may have lost a customer for other gear.

You asked for special accomodations by not doing your training on two consectutive weekends. This was a out of the norm request until they agreed to accomodate. Once they said they would work with you, then they should have followed through and done so. If they had been inflexible from the beginning they you would have realized the true nature of the shop and gone elsewhere. They billed themselves as customer friendly but were actually a wolf in sheeps clothing.

The final comment that I will make is about refund. The shop that I go through charges one price ($150) for the classroom, books, and confided water and an additional charge ($100) for the OW dives. This breakdown is given so that students who choose to do their pool training locally but end up as referal students for their open water (your eventual situation) know the cost of each element. I would have my spouse or a friend call and inquire with the shop for the cost of doing just the pool training and getting a referral for OW out of the country. This will give you an idea of what a fair refund should be since this is all the training you received.

My only other words of wisdom to you are, diving is far more wonderful that some of the so called "diving professionals" make it some days. I am sure that almost any diver that has been diving very long will tell you that they have had atleast one frustrating experience with a dive shop, boat operator or resort. Most of these people are not "business people" in the sense that we are used to dealing with. Most that I have been around are people who loved diving (at least in the beginning) and thought it would be better than their previous profession. This does not make them good business people or retail shop owners. Those of us who spend 50+ hours a week providing real customer service in other industries, tend to expect the same it our private business dealings whether it be a dry cleaners or a dive shop.

I my experience, this is an unreasonable expectation that leads to much personal frustration if you let it. My suggestion, find one good dive shop employee at a shop that you can tolerate and deal only with that person. In my LDS, I don't talk to the owner if I can possibly help it. He has an awesome college student who works for him that I try to deal with exclusively. My orders and expectations are always met.

Don't let this bad apple spoil your diving experience. Best wishes in your marriage also. My husband and I have been married 7 years, two as dive buddies and are expecting our first future diver in December. I would not let a bad LDS take away any of the memories or future dreams that I have of diving with my husband and child.

:bunny: KC_Scubabunny :bunny:
 
When this thing is resolved, I'll be happy to name the shop, but until then, I thought it would be more fair to the shop to post the whole story so people can judge for themselves

As already stated, we're not getting the "whole story", we're getting YOUR side of it. Pleare re-read Mike's post so you can understand what it's like from an Instructor's POV. Do you think the pool will "understand" when none of our students show up for a confined water session? Nope. They could care less.. they'll just charge us for the pool time.

I guess none of Submariner's gear matches, unless he was lucky and the dive shop had all the colors/styles available for him

Friend, if the colour matching is your major criteria for choosing gear, I am truly afraid for you. :wink: Do you not think it possible to be able to tell a medium from a large set of exactly the same type of fins? You're not giving yourself very much credit.

BTW, if you are really hinky about that last part, the easiest way to tell your gear from your S/O's is to mark it. There are plenty of markers out there that will do the job.

We're not trying to give you a hard time. We're just trying to make you understand that there are TWO sides to every story.

~SubMariner~
 
Originally posted by KC_Scubabunny

The customer is always right. And even if the customer is wrong, it is the businesses responsiblity to make the customer feel like they are right.


I have to disagree with you on that. The customer is not always even close to right. I worked in customer service for a long time, thank God I am no longer in it. I was an assistant manager at a gun store/shooting range for about 3 years, and a supervisor of ticketing/gates for an airline for about 4 years. (I did the gun thing part time, and am now in aircraft maintenance instead of CS.) You can have many customers who think that they are right, but are far from it. You can not always give into the demands of that customer and make them think that they were right. That would drive you into bankruptcy in the end. I do agree with doing what you can to try to accomodate the customer, but sometimes you simply can't do anything to make them happy.

You also stated that the LDS was a wolf in sheeps clothing. I do not find that totally correct. The LDS did what they could do to accomodate the customer by splitting up the weekends. However, when things needed to be rearragned once again, they simply could not do it. They should not have to either. They should help as much as they can, and maybe this time they simply could not accomodate the needs of the customer. This may suck, but it happens.

I feel that store was reasonable in offering even a partial refund. That however was not satisfactory. If the store simply can not refund the amount the customer feels resonable, perhaps a store credit for future gear or classes is appropriate. Things can be done, and I feel the LDS is doing what it can to help.

With that said, I would probably find a new LDS anyway. One that can not keep tanks filled simply is subpar IMO.
 
Originally posted by Big James
I have to disagree with you on that. The customer is not always even close to right.

Thanks you James for stating the obvious truth to someone who may be living in a fantasy world.

Tom
 
Just so you know, picking the equipment (including the tanks) up early is not my policy, it's the LDS's.
Your argument that the equipment is used in the pool the night before is incorrect in this situation because the LDS wanted us to keep all the equipment over the two weeks in between our confined water dives and our OW dives.
They let us return the equipment to them as a favor.

Now before you go accusing me of being responsible because I made them take the equipment back, or whatever, let me point out that we would've been in the same situation as the tanks we had were basically empty after completing our confined water dives.
So instead of asking me to drive through rush hour traffic to pick up all the gear, they would've been asking me to pick up only the tanks - same problem either way.

I'll also reiterate that when we returned the equipment we were told that we should pick it up as early as possible - the dive shop is quite small and they use a relatively near by public storage place to store all of their rental gear. I guess they didn't want it lying around in the shop.
Anyway, they told us to pick it up as early as possible.
We called on Wednesday to do that, they said we could not.
We called on Thursday to do that, they said we could not.
We told them it was unlikely we'd be available on Friday, and they didn't seem to think that would be a problem - at least if they did, they didn't mention it to me or my wife.

As for your asking if I could imagine what it would be like for the LDS if all their customers were like me: well, yes I can. I'm friendly, courteous, and I always pay on time. I bought all of the equipment recommended, and I even asked the guy if he'd rather I use my Visa card as opposed to my preferred American Express (now they know customer service), because I know that Visa charges a lower fee to the vendor.

As far as scheduling goes, while it's true that I called with an odd request, I'll remind you that they had already agreed to take another student who had the same sort of scheduling conflict. The class my wife and I joined was ALREADY going to skip a week between confined and open water. I didn't make them change anything.

The very last thing I'll say is that I'd likely have a much different attitude about this whole situation if it hadn't taken me 3 solid weeks to get any type of answer out of them.
THREE WEEKS, PEOPLE! That's absurd. And I firmly believe that the only reason they stopped giving me the runaround is because I told them I was fed up and was going to contact my credit card company and dispute the charges.
That is complete and utter B S
I'd love to hear you guys come up with a good excuse for that one, especially those of you who think it's okay for the LDS to expect me to pick my equipment up on an hour's notice. :rolleyes:
Whether I lived an hour or a minute from the shop, it's ridiculous that they expected me to be available only when it was convenient for them.
If someone had taken a moment with me when this all happened and said, 'o.k., here's the deal, we make no money on these classes, we're on the hook for all this crap we scheduled you to use,' etc., then I might be much more understanding.
That wasn't the case, not even close.
 
I don't believe that the customer is always right either.
What if I somehow thought I was owed everything back for the difficulty I encountered?
What if I thought the LDS should eat the cost of me taking the OW couse at the Grand Wailea, where it costs something stupid like $500?
Naturally, I'd be wrong.
I feel I'm being reasonable in this case, but since I don't run a dive shop, I came here to see if there were some aspects I didn't understand.
So far there aren't many.

I'm gonna remind you guys, I absolutely feel that I should be on the hook for my wife missing class, period.

I absolutely feel that the LDS bears 90% of the blame for me missing mine.

Whether fees were paid for an OW instructor or not, the LDS offered to reschedule for us at no additional charge (at least they never mentioned one). We couldn't do the rescheduled date because the instructor fell ill, and the LDS couldn't find anyone else to take us.
(I'll also remind you that with two phonecalls I DID find someone who could take us, but hey, I'm no dive expert, so I'll just chalk that up to amazing luck:rolleyes: )

I am entitled to any money paid to the LDS for services that were not rendered.
I didn't go out on a boat, so I should get a refund for that - they tell me that's what the $130 is.
I didn't use an instructor's time, and sinc HE cancelled, I can't imagine they're on the hook for his fee, therefore I should get that money back as well.
I didn't use their equipment for two of the days that I paid for. I should get that money back.

I arrived at the $300 figure by comparing what shops in my area charge for an OW cert. with and without the actual OW part. As I stated, it's just under 50%
50% of $700 is $350. I'm not pushing for more than $300 because my wife was responsible for missing her class.
 
Originally posted by Crrink
Now before you go accusing me of being responsible
Folks here can't really make judgements on this because we don't have all the facts and both sides are not present and we are all loaded with bias anyway... and often conflicted within ourselves...

Couple that with general crankiness from sitting here at a computer instead of being out diving and.... well.... don't take too much to heart Chris...
 
Originally posted by WreckWriter


Thanks you James for stating the obvious truth to someone who may be living in a fantasy world.

Tom

Tom,

You might think that I live in a fantasy world but I reserve the right to do business with places that treat me with the correct amount of customer courtesy for my business. I know the difference between an unreasonable request and always being right but I do have a short list of businesses that I do no longer do business with because their customer service policies or return policies are not acceptable to me. It is not always getting what you want as a customer but the business seeking a win-win for both of you.

My point to Chris was that there is rarely one dive shop in any market and I am sure he can find a shop that is more motivated to make him happy as a customer than the one he previously dealt with.

:bunny: KC_Scubabunny :bunny:
 
For what it is worth, KC_Scubabunny , I agree with everything you have said. Ironically, we have to do extensive staff education in our sales areas because the people who work there have not had good Customer service themselves, so have no standard by which to measure THEIR behavior. How do you explain what "hot" is to someone who has never felt it. We have developed a scheme by which there is someone whose whole job it is to be the "Customer Advocate", and take the Customer's side in any dispute, regardless of the seeming logic. That helps us to think like the Customer, and see their side.

The Customer is the Boss-they pay our salaries, wages etc. They can go anywhere they want with their business. It is incumbent on us to be as attractive as we can.

Some people will never get it. Some, like a post in this thread, will wisely get out of Customer service. Others will talk about how incompetent and stupid the Customer is their whole lives, and never see how that limits (or eliminates!) their success!

If anyone is interested, check out the FISH video-it is about the fish market in Pike Place Market in Seattle, and is the best story of Customer service and success in business I have seen.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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