LONG post about a dispute with my LDS

[Jonathan]

half a dozen of the other.

I felt a Monty Python line coming on but resisted. Good planning should always include some contingency.

Having said that I am a bit bemused by the tank thing. I can understand a shop not renting a tank without a cert card but a simple phone call could have sorted that. Secondly though if you had kept your kit at home like they would have preferred how were you going to get it filled? Not at that particular LDS by the sound of it......

Jonathan

 

[rstone]

Originally posted by Jonathan
half a dozen of the other.

I felt a Monty Python line coming on but resisted. Good planning should always include some contingency.

Having said that I am a bit bemused by the tank thing. I can understand a shop not renting a tank without a cert card but a simple phone call could have sorted that. Secondly though if you had kept your kit at home like they would have preferred how were you going to get it filled? Not at that particular LDS by the sound of it......

Jonathan

Well my take on handing out tanks is, its irresponsible for a Dive Shop to hand them out before a dive. Its totally a liability issue. The Shop I worked for never gave out tanks until the day of the dive and had to be returned after the dive. The issue is what if a student goes hops in a pool or finds a place to hop in the water and hurts himself. The shop would pay a high price for this if the student got injured.

As for giving your equipement on the day of the dive, I see why not. Sure its more convient for the shop and saves time if the students pick up there rental gear before the dive, so you dont have to mess with fitting them and wasting valuable time, but there is no reason they shouldnt of allowed you to pick it up if they really wanted your business. I assume they said no because only the owner had the keys to the store and he didnt want to come in early or hand out a key to his instructors, which is just plain stupid anyways.

I do agree with everyone else though, that you should of only done this when you had the time. Shops always plan for schedule changes or at least should. Thats part of doing business in the dive industry, and if the owner feels hes entitled to some compensation for a schedule change, hes in the wrong line of business. You should of only been charged for actual expenses you incured ie: Rental gear, Books, Instructors time, and pool fee if they pay for one.

400 per person?? for a referral?? You got ripped off. I've been to Hawaii many times, and even took a few classes there. Awesome diving though

Ryan Stone
IDCS

 

[kwesler]

rstone has a good point on the liability issue as far as tanks go...it seems to me that there is one little problem here, and one LARGE and ongoing LDS issue...

The small issue is communication. It has been my observation that almost alll Customer service issues begin with not properly creating and communicating guidelines for the relationship. It sounds like the LDS was doing a "VIP" course for you, rather than the standard. More expensive for them and you, and MUCH more dependent on your adhering to all their requirments, even if they do not seem to make sense to you. They may have had extraordinary issues to deal with to accommodate you.

HOWEVER, and here is where we come to the large issue, it also sounds like they did not successfully communicate to you why they have the rules they have, and what your options were as events unfolded. THAT, IMHO, is their fault.

My observation is that with some notable exceptions, LDS do NOT see themselves as a typical retail operation who only exist to serve their Customers. They seem to rather see themselves as part of a larger society, or club of divers, and that the relationship is equal or even in their favor since they are providing a service. If you browse the threads, you will see numerous references to how expensive and unrewarding it is to run a dive operation...how there is little margin and how they must be supported regardless of Customer service because "where would we be without them"

I think we are seeing a sea change in dive retail (pun intended) and over time, the Customer friendly shops will survive and grow, and the shops who see Customers as a necessary evil will disappear through a change of philosophy or an inability to compete.

 

[Rick Murchison]

The dive shop could have accomodated you better...
However, if you're unhappy now, you're going to be in a permanant funk when you start dealing with boats and weather.
Rick

 

[SeaGypsy]

Take the $130 then take your future business elsewhere.

 

[MikeS]

Crinnk,

Stories like this make me appreciate my LDS even more! I don’t understand why your LDS leaves unfilled tanks lying around. The LDSs I’ve dealt with all fill up the tanks right away and store them full, ready for class or rental. Additionally, on busy weekends with a lot of classes, my LDS will fill the tanks for you while you wait, only takes a few minutes.

But!!!

I signed up for an OW course at a local LDS and ended up doing a referral in Aruba. I never asked for a refund for the open water portion because that simply wasn’t part of the deal. To their credit my LDS did allow me to go to the pool at no cost for a refresher just before my trip. I’ve not seen anywhere that advertises a lower price for just the classroom and pool portion of OW. I’m not sure what you are asking for is fair. Your LDS still had to schedule the dives for the rest of the class, pay an instructor, etc., etc., even if you didn’t go.

Mike

 

[WreckWriter]

Originally posted by Crrink
Wow, you seem like a friendly guy.

I am friendly, I just don't believe in "mollycoddling" people much.

I didn't demand that ANYTHING be done my way. We asked if the LDS could accomodate our schedule and they told us it was absolutely no problem.

That, of course, is perfectly reasonable. The demand that is not reasonable is in demanding he pay you because you made a bad deal in Hawaii.

As I stated before:
-I expected to have to pay some additional fee to have my wife certified since she got sick and couldn't dive on the scheduled day (as ordered by her doc.)
-I very much wanted to dive, but they didn't make my equipment available UNTIL THE NIGHT BEFORE THE FIRST DIVE..

I've never seen gear given to students other than the day of the dives. This would be unsafe and would put the shop in a very bad liability position. I think even giving it to you the night before is too much.

Do you really think that is acceptable?
I proposed a number of ways that the dive shop could've easily gotten my equipment to me (since they didn't have it ready when they SAID THEY WOULD)
Yes, I COULD have driven an hour each way to the shop, but I don't think I should have been MADE to..

Seems like most of this hinges on things either you or they didn't WANT to do rather than couldn't do. You are definately right about the gear not being ready, this seems weird. Do they not have a compressor to fill tanks on demand?

This shop is very unorganized, there were several other, smaller things I didn't mention in order to save space, but things like it taking 3 visits for us to be able to collect our books, and having to argue on the phone for 20 minutes that the fins I wanted were actually available in grey, were typical of our experience with them..

From your description it sounds like they are a "part-time" shop. That does seem odd but my experience is primarily in Florida where shops seem to operate differently than other places. Dive shops very rarely are profitable enterprises. Generally folks open dive shops because they love diving and want to be around it and doing it. It may be that this guy has another job and/or had other commitments which kept him from acoomodating you. If so, he should have said so.

Mr. Wreckwriter, please explain to me why you feel they owe me nothing - do you honestly think they committed no errors at all? .

Yea, I do think they made errors. They should have put your wants before their own. I don't see how they owe you money though. Did you sign a contract? Did it mention refunds or such?

As others have said, you shouldn't have committed to this during a time when you couldn't/wouldn't give it your full attention. Diving is a serious business and should be properly committed to or not done.

I'm sure the shop owner sees these events in a different light. That's ussually the way it goes, 2 opinions with reality somewhere in the middle.

Tom

 

[SubMariner]

I think this line from you sums it up

"in defense of the dive shop, I wasn't expressly forbidden to not use anyone else's equipment. They told me I couldn't, and when I protested they offered the excuse that there's no way I could've rented a tank since I only had my classroom and confined water diving done. I thought maybe they could give a local shop a call or something, but apparently not."

Crrink, you & your s/o are a VERY high maintenance OW students. You kept changing things on the LDS, then expecting them to accommodate you. Then there was that line you threw in about the grey fins... kind of says it all for me.

Was there a lack of proper communication? Yes, on BOTH sides. However, you were busy and THEY were busy. Frankly, you were way too busy & under far too many time constraints to have started the whole process in the first place.

No offense, but it has been my experience that people who wind up going through all these types of "problems" are people who have issues with control and flexibility.

I would be very interested in hearing the LDS's side of the story.

~SubMariner~

 

[srkdvr]

'NONAMEISGOOD" & "SEAGYPSY" I have worked in the past in retail for several years and if you want to keep customers you try and make them happy.

This LDS is run by a guy who does not know what he is doing.. he is the only one who can air a tank...... sure! He doesn't trust his co-workers to come in early to open a store to give out dive equipment prior to a dive? He doesn't want you to rent gear from some place else to finish your cert...... HE NEEDS TO QUIT THE BUSINESS AND WORK AT McDONALDS.

May I suggest you find a shop closer to you and do your business with them and forget this other group of ....... I guess I will say clowns. The other descriptive words I want to use may be too harsh.

Hope you guys had fun diving in Hawaii!!!!!

Rich :mean:

 

[The Chairman]

It is not possible or reasonable for us to know every detail from our respective keyboards.

We don't need to "point fingers" at either the customer or the establishment. When right or wrong is determined then BOTH parties lose. If the customer perceives that HE has won, then BOTH sides win. The customer feels great about a purchase(s) and the LDS could have won a client for life.

At this point the client relationship is semi-fractured. The ONLY way for the shop to retain the client is with a GREAT comeback. That would be the $300, and a showing of great concern for the client. THAT BEING SAID... the $300 could be in the form of a shop credit, or credit towards the AOW. You should always be creative in responding to a customer's concerns. You don't always have to go to Hip State Bank to accommodate everyone. Keeping a client (high maintenance or not) is far cheaper than attracting a new one.

HOWEVER, giving up a filled tank to a non-certified student is not reasonable. Part of your duty to your client as an instructor, is that of supervisor. Have them pick up the BC and the wetsuit sure, they both have to fit. But the tank and possibly even the regulator should never be in the student's possession outside of the instructor's DIRECT supervision. The risk is too great for them to hop in a lake or a friend’s pool just to mess around. I always transport the tanks to the site… them picking up the tanks prior to class is NOT an option for me.