Long-hose in the time of COVID-19

[saxman242]

I recently got to see up close the effects of a near drowning. It was not at all pretty, involved ambulances, blue flashing lights, police, O2, mess, a good period of wondering if the victim was permanently damaged and so forth. And an incident report form. No fun at all.

It seems to me that trying to train people to have a regulator stolen will have results like that now and again. And when the police ask, as they did, exactly what happened and the drownee says ‘Ken came from behind me and took a working regulator from my mouth while I was inhaling.’ where do you think the conversation goes next?

Well what you would train is exactly the same as what most everyone does now: you're ooa, you go to diver with air, you signal ooa, diver gives you reg.

Only difference is now the diver donating air knows how to respond when a panicked diver doesn't follow training and instead acts in desperation, as one does while panicking.

That works for every training group that teaches donating a reg. It doesn't for the one agency that teaches taking a reg.

 

[KenGordon]

Well what you would train is exactly the same as what most everyone does now: you're ooa, you go to diver with air, you signal ooa, diver gives you reg.

Only difference is now the diver donating air knows how to respond when a panicked diver doesn't follow training and instead acts in desperation, as one does while panicking.

That works for every training group that teaches donating a reg. It doesn't for the one agency that teaches taking a reg.

I must be thick, you seem to be saying that you can practice for a panicked diver stealing a reg by practicing for a diver asking for a reg and waiting for it to be donated? I think you need to make clear the particular action that comes from desperation and the response to that, if any.

 

[saxman242]

I must be thick, you seem to be saying that you can practice for a panicked diver stealing a reg by practicing for a diver asking for a reg and waiting for it to be donated? I think you need to make clear the particular action that comes from desperation and the response to that, if any.

Your assertion appears to be that training people to have the regulator stolen from their mouth is a liability issue. There's three ways to address that:

• You train to have a different regulator stolen. This is the BSAC approach. Works great, as long as everyone follows their training. If the ooa diver panicks and tries to steal the primary reg, one must rapidly adapt.
• You train to donate the secondary reg. Works great, as long as everyone follows their training. If the ooa diver panicks and tries to steal the primary reg, one must rapidly adapt.
• You train to donate the primary reg. Works great, as long as everyone follows their training. If the ooa diver panicks and tries to steal the primary reg, one is more readily prepared for rapidly switching to their secondary, being without air for a moment, etc, as this is more closely aligned with the normal ooa procedure.

All three options work great, as long as everyone does what they're supposed to. One has an advantage when the panicked diver doesn't.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

There is no "us sidemount divers" unless "you guys" suddenly agreed on a global standard.

There is when I have used it in reference to my buddies and students. The only SM diver buddy I have that doesn't use a breakaway uses two 5' hoses with L/R regs.

As for the rest of the SM crowd, I personally do not know anyone who dives a short/long hose config where the long hose is tied to the boltsnap using cave line like one would see in a traditional long hose setup.

 

[KenGordon]

Your assertion appears to be that training people to have the regulator stolen from their mouth is a liability issue. There's three ways to address that:

• You train to have a different regulator stolen. This is the BSAC approach. Works great, as long as everyone follows their training. If the ooa diver panicks and tries to steal the primary reg, one must rapidly adapt.
• You train to donate the secondary reg. Works great, as long as everyone follows their training. If the ooa diver panicks and tries to steal the primary reg, one must rapidly adapt.
• You train to donate the primary reg. Works great, as long as everyone follows their training. If the ooa diver panicks and tries to steal the primary reg, one is more readily prepared for rapidly switching to their secondary, being without air for a moment, etc, as this is more closely aligned with the normal ooa procedure.

All three options work great, as long as everyone does what they're supposed to. One has an advantage when the panicked diver doesn't.

Maybe you can go through those three cases and spell out the difference in how a panicking diver might behave and what mitigation each has and then what training would improve that.

Liability is not a concern here, injuring students and subsequent buddies is.

 

[saxman242]

Maybe you can go through those three cases and spell out the difference in how a panicking diver might behave and what mitigation each has and then what training would improve that.

Liability is not a concern here, injuring students and subsequent buddies is.

Well, you have a panicked diver either responding as trained, which is fine in any situation or trying to take the primary reg. If the diver does as trained, then there's no problem in any case. If the diver takes the primary reg, you have one donating diver that has trained specifically for donating their primary reg. This panicked situation is in line with their expectations, so there is no departure from how they're already trained to respond. You have two situations where the donating diver must respond in a way different from how they have trained to handle OOA situations.

In an emergency, would you rather have someone respond as trained or adapting on the fly?

 

[KenGordon]

Well, you have a panicked diver either responding as trained, which is fine in any situation or trying to take the primary reg. If the diver does as trained, then there's no problem in any case. If the diver takes the primary reg, you have one donating diver that has trained specifically for donating their primary reg. This panicked situation is in line with their expectations, so there is no departure from how they're already trained to respond. You have two situations where the donating diver must respond in a way different from how they have trained to handle OOA situations.

In an emergency, would you rather have someone respond as trained or adapting on the fly?

Rather than making me parse a wall of text why not enumerate each case in turn?

BTW Are you assuming that being trained to donate a primary is helpful in the case that the regulator is stolen from the mouth?

 

[saxman242]

Like where I walked through the three different options above, separated by bullet points?

Yes, I'm assuming that a diver trained to donate the regulator in their mouth is going to respond better to the regulator in their mouth being taken, as their standard response to an ooa diver includes the regulator in their mouth being taken and them switching to the secondary rapidly than a diver who has not trained for that scenario.

Are you going to suggest that a diver who trains to not have their primary given is going to respond better to having their primary taken?

 

[Edward3c]

That works for every training group that teaches donating a reg. It doesn't for the one agency that teaches taking a reg.

With the exception of GUI what other agency mandates the teaching of primary donate from a long hose?

Just because an agency permits its instructors to teach the method doesn’t mean it will be taught.

In a liability case it’s the instructor(s) who would have to proof it was the correct OOG response for recreational diving.

 

[saxman242]

With the exception of GUI what other agency mandates the teaching of primary donate from a long hose?

Just because an agency permits its instructors to teach the method doesn’t mean it will be taught.

In a liability case it’s the instructor(s) who would have to it was the correct OOG response for recreational diving.

Re-read what I said.

There was no mention of primary vs secondary donate in that statement. That was a statement about teaching take vs donate.