Long-hose in the time of COVID-19

[tbone1004]

@Gareth J sidemount is basically just independent twins that fell off of your back. Gas management techniques are usually the same, but as I'm sure you're aware with indy twins, some people want you to change very frequently and keep them at almost the same pressure, and others go in much larger chunks. Over here you see people lobbying to change every 10-20bar which I think is ridiculous.
We work in PSI here, so my usual MO for cave diving provided we are doing a textbook dive to thirds *which is never a thing, but this is theoretical* is as follows. Start at 3600 psi in both tanks. Dive long hose to 3000psi. Switch to short hose and dive to 2400psi. Switch to long hose which covers through the turn. Stay on long hose until 1800psi. Switch back to short hose and dive to 1200psi. Switch to long hose for the remainder of exit and hit the deco bottles or exit at 1200psi in both tanks. Theoretically that's how it goes. Usually in a high ish flow cave we are coming out much faster than we went in, so that exact scenario rarely happens, but that's the theory.

The key in a real OOA is to make direct eye contact with the diver. Get them to look at your eyes. Eye contact and physical touch do wonders to lower the panic response. Trying to focus on obscuring your primary is going to distract you from what's going on, so get eye contact with them and don't break it.

 

[Gareth J]

@Gareth J
The key in a real OOA is to make direct eye contact with the diver. Get them to look at your eyes. Eye contact and physical touch do wonders to lower the panic response. Trying to focus on obscuring your primary is going to distract you from what's going on, so get eye contact with them and don't break it.

Couldn't agree more regarding eye contact. I have also found physical contact seems to help people regain/maintain control.

 

[kensuf]

Couldn't agree more regarding eye contact. I have also found physical contact seems to help people regain/maintain control.

Absolutely. It's amazing how a simple bicep squeeze can be very calming in a stressful situation.

 

[tbone1004]

@Gareth J and @kensuf and you agreeing with me emphasizes my argument against BSAC's approach to secondary take and those that advocate using a long hose to let the panicked diver stay away from them. Not only does it not place the donating diver in the control position to manage the scenario, but more importantly doesn't give you the opportunity to help arrest a panic response.
Our students are taught that before they give a regulator to another diver, they are to reach out with their left hand and grab the other divers shoulder strap. This gives them positive contact with the diver. Once the reg is handed over, they switch to their right hand so they can control their buoyancy with the left and go into a forearm grip as trained, but they are also trained to grab the right shoulder strap if the diver is not being cooperative. This is something that I don't see heavily emphasized and is part of planning for the worst and hoping for the best.

 

[Gareth J]

@Gareth J and @kensuf and you agreeing with me emphasizes my argument against BSAC's approach to secondary take and those that advocate using a long hose to let the panicked diver stay away from them. Not only does it not place the donating diver in the control position to manage the scenario, but more importantly doesn't give you the opportunity to help arrest a panic response.
Our students are taught that before they give a regulator to another diver, they are to reach out with their left hand and grab the other divers shoulder strap. This gives them positive contact with the diver. Once the reg is handed over, they switch to their right hand so they can control their buoyancy with the left and go into a forearm grip as trained, but they are also trained to grab the right shoulder strap if the diver is not being cooperative. This is something that I don't see heavily emphasized and is part of planning for the worst and hoping for the best.

Positive contact is a requirement in BSAC training.
Originally. we used to teach donate.
Which was basically.
Release the AAS - advance on the diver with it in front of you, ensuring the purge is clear (holding the hose is generally best).
Hand over the AAS and grasp the shoulder strap avoiding any shoulder release.

The current technique is really an adaption where the 'casualty' takes the regulator from the diver.
But the donor, once aware grasp's the shoulder strap (avoiding the release).
The casualty is also supposed to grasp the rescuers shoulder strap.

I basically teach both donate, and take. The principle reason for take, is to ensure the casualty actually learns that they are able to take the AAS rather than sitting waiting for rescue.
Whilst it seems counter intuitive that some one wouldn't take an AAS if the buddy was unaware. This appeared to be the reaction of a number who had made rapid ascent when a perfectly good AAS even though the buddy was unaware.

I guess it is an extension of the issue we used to have where divers would fail to release the weight belt, even when in difficulty on the surface. Something that is now corrected in diver training, because on various lessons they are required to 'ditch' the weight belt. This has increased the number of people ditching weight belts when in difficulty.

It also has increased the amusement of onlookers watching people attempting to get weight belts back after ditching during training.

 

[boulderjohn]

I just read through this thread, and my head is spinning. I do believe that people will tend to behave as trained, but the way they were trained may be a problem. If you are talking about long hose donation, you are primarily talking about people who learned that during more advanced training, and the nature of that training is very different from most training given to the overwhelming majority of the world's divers, who have had no training after their OW class. The training most divers receive in OW class violates a primary rule of effective performance training and leads to many of the problems we see in OOA situations.

A primary rule of performance training (as in all sports) is that the instruction and practice should be "gamelike"--it should be done as much as possible precisely the way it happens in real life. If not, you are likely ingraining incorrect habits that may harm performance in a real-life situation.

When I was a beginning instructor, all OOA training, from the first introduction in the shallow end of the pool to the OW checkout dives, was done as follows.

1. The students are using the traditional "golden triangle" alternate system.
2. The two students kneel on the bottom, chest to chest.
3. The OOA diver signals OOA and then patiently waits for the donor to respond.
4. If (as is most common) the alternate is to be either taken or donated, it is right there in full view, a foot or so away from the kneeling OOA diver.
5. The exchange is made, after which they go through the rest of the process.

In real life, we rarely spend the dive kneeling next to each other, awaiting an OOA event. The divers will be in mid water, and the OOA diver will not be kneeling and patiently waiting but will instead be swimming toward the donor from an unpredictable angle. The OOA diver who has been taught to take or receive the alternate may not see that regulator because of that approach angle. The primary may be the only regulator visible, but the OOA diver may still try to follow training and find that alternate. In an episode in the Netherlands that impacted my thinking on this, the OOA diver drowned because neither she nor the donor could find the alternate, which had come loose from its holder and was stuck behind the donor. In short, a real-life OOA situation does not look or behave the way it is too often taught and trained. Because of that, it can lead to unpredictable behaviors on the part of the OOA diver.

Training with a long hose more typically takes place in mid water, and it often involves "surprises," with a student being told to be OOA unexpectedly in a natural diving scenario. In tech training, these situations happen frequently. That means that the OOA diver will know where to go for the donation. The OOA diver will see the donatable regulator easily. It also means that the donor will almost certainly see the OOA diver coming as the OOA signal is being given. Contrary to something said earlier, the donation of the primary on a long hose is incredibly fast, many times faster than the donation of an alternate, no matter how that alternate is attached.

As to the OP's question, I have not been able to dive for months now because of Covid-19, and I have students champing at the bit to begin. We are going to have to have a chat about this. My primary is clipped on a breakaway connection (weak zip tie), as I learned in my sidemount training, but I am not anxious to teach a skill differently than I would want to them to use it in real life. We may do more modified S-drills, where the OOA diver does not complete the action of using the regulator.

In real life, I want the air first. I can worry about the Covid later.

 

[MichaelMc]

My primary is clipped on a breakaway connection (weak zip tie), as I learned in my sidemount training, but I am not anxious to teach a skill differently than I would want to them to use it in real life. We may do more modified S-drills, where the OOA diver does not complete the action of using the regulator.

What about teaching like sidemount/independent doubles:
- Grasp the reg in the mouth to see which it is (by the dangling bolt snap),
- if it is the long hose donate it,
- otherwise, reach for where the long hose is clipped off, unclip or breakaway, and donate it.

The hose deployment of the clipped off reg is similar to from the mouth and you can complete both divers dealing with the air share more naturally. Have them practice from the mouth by themself a few times to get the feel of how that goes over the head. If they then go back to breathing the long hose, post covid, the procedure is the same. Just post covid it always happens to be the longhose in their mouth.

It depends. With them in class only responding when it is clipped off, you might be training them to not really make a choice based on the 'which reg am I breathing' check and just always then reach to their chest D ring.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Instead of arguing endlessly about which method is best, maybe we should be discussing the best ways to prevent OOA emergencies in the first place??
I don’t see the big deal with switching from primary donate to a secondary in the triangle. All I would have to do is use my necklaces reg as my primary and the 40” would be stuffed under a piece of inner tube on my right shoulder strap in plain view. It could be deployed in an instant just like if it was a primary in my mouth. During a primary donate the donating diver should be the one in charge and the one administering the reg to the OOA diver, not the other way around. I was taught to grab the hose right next to the second stage forming a fist and hand it straight to the diver rotating it 180 degrees with exhaust down and arm extended out. You get it in their mouth until you see them clear it and breathe then you can let it go after they have a hand on it. You don’t want to fumble it so that’s why it’s important to grasp it firmly.
To me it doesn’t matter so much if the donated reg came from your mouth or from being stowed, the time frame and delivery/control is the more critical factor. I think another very important thing is for each diver to carefully pay attention to each other and know where your buddy is avoid a from-behind-reg-mugging. I say this because I know we’re mostly talking about basic OW divers who don’t have a lot of experience, but if you’re the primary lead diver leading around a new instabuddy then these rules need to be discussed before the dive and followed. If I saw an instabuddy making a beeline for my primary the first thing that would happen is I would reach out and grab them by something around their chest with a strong arm and hold them firmly to get control of them by the BC chest strap, shoulder strap, etc. I would establish control first and foremost then they would get my reg. I would make sure it operates properly before the dive. I don’t believe in using some cheap detuned secondary. All my regs are high quality and operate perfectly.
For this reason, I see rental regs to possibly be inferior or at least have the potential to be flawed. I think anyone who regularly dives deeper that just shallow reef dives once a year on vacation should really consider buying their own QUALITY equipment, keep it tuned and it good shape, and please get in the habit of checking your gas supply regularly please,
(an old solo diver trick).
Thank You

 

[Storker]

please get in the habit of checking your gas supply regularly please,
(an old solo scuba diver trick).

FTFY

 

[Ayisha]

Following the release of GUE COVID-19 protocols...
Do you think clipping the regulator significantly increases the time it takes to donate in a OOG situation? Would you keep it unclipped instead (just hanging on your neck) in a recreational dive?

I would not keep it unclipped in case it becomes an entanglement hazard or in case it may be elsewhere when you look for it.

I don't think it would significantly increase donation time. If you consider that this protocol was released for GUE trained divers, and how much time each of us has spent clipping and unclipping bolt snaps until we're proficient without even looking at where they are, it should be very insignificant for a GUE trained diver.