Line skills

[InTheDrink]

The main thing to remember should be obvious, but often gets overlooked.

What's the line for? It's to get you out when you can't see.

If this had happened in a silted out wreck, I'd be posting this from the grave. (I'm the one in the background wearing wetgloves failing to get tension back in the line - LOL. Note that we are wearing blacked out masks in that video).

Ok so I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but what happens if a tie-off comes lose? Is it question of reeling up til it's taut again and back tracking, or does one push forward to to find the next tie-off? Or, as most things in life, does it depend on how precarious the second to last tie-off is would be to shearing, the distance from the previous tie-off, nature of the cave, flow or expected flow etc.?

What is normal practise if otherwise taut line suddenly goes slack?

J

 

[InTheDrink]

That's a philosophical question and I'm hardly an authority (not cave trained yet, very little actual wreck penetration experience). In navigating overheads, I tend to think of the line as being a backup.

Realistically, am I going to remember "right, left, up, left, right, straight past two passages, down, left, up, right, etc."? Probably not. And when I'm reeling out, I am actively following my line, and it may fundamentally be my primary navigational aide. But philosophically, I strive to not need it.

In any case, delete the "when you can't see" from my post and the intent stands. Imagine not knowing which way is out and coming across that rats nest. I'd probably silt the room out with the stream shooting out of my p-valve.

To be fair, it didn't "become slack," the instructor cut it. Being in surge and cold water gloves didn't help matters, but we obviously didn't handle it well.

It's fine you're not or don't consider yourself an authority - it's still great information for me. It gives me some understanding of the variation between strict protocols Vs best or normal practises. It makes sense to me that one should try to be able to retrieve oneself without the line, as per Lynne's posts. There's no redundancy on the line so it's a SPOF.

I think your rats nest analogy illustrates well. I can see exactly how useful a bunched up bit of slack line would be to get you nowhere. Part of me is still trying to think of a way to manage to get redundancy into that system, somewhere. Do you do two tie-offs in particular location when you're not 100% happy with the quality of a particular placement, BTW?

And re: the instructor cutting it - you gotta love these guys. Hopefully you'll be able to return the favour one day

Thanks again for your posts - giving me loads to think about and loads to understand.

J

 

[InTheDrink]

J - For the record, I've really enjoyed reading this thread. Your questions are great, and your considered responses to the feedback you've received are awesome, too. I'm scheduled to take an Apprentice cave course in Mexico late next month - too bad you won't be one of the party, as I think you'd have a blast.

To my mind, the line you lay connecting open water to the main line in the cave serves two functions. First and foremost, it's your ticket to open water. Open water = direct access to the surface, which (I'm sure we'd all agree) is a beautiful thing. I use the line as my primary source of navigation. One's sense of the cavern's contours and unique features certainly serve as a 'back up', but let's assume it's silted to crap and you can't see worth a damn. The guideline is your Yellow Brick Road. Also, let's assume you graduate from cavern to the actual cave courses and are exiting a cavern at night. Naturally, you have no daylight winking at you to help illuminate certain features, and will be pretty much focused on your line.

Second, your guideline verifies that your exit is clear. This is more of an issue in a cave system with multiple access points. Lets say you're in a cave and the excrement has hit the extrusion device: you've failed to manage your gas correctly, all but one light has died, or whatever. You look at the main line and wow! The line arrows indicate there's a closer exit to the one you used. Do you take it? Initially, I thought 'Hell, yes" until my instructor all but smacked me over the head with his can light. "How do you know your exit is clear?" he asked. "You know this area is prone to floods...what if the exit you chose leads to a sinkhole that's completely obstructed with debris?" (we were in North Florida) "Even if it were OK...you're telling me that going to arse about in a cavern you don't know how to exit because there's no guideline there, while your gas is running low and your lights are busted?"

What can I say. He has a way of putting things!

I'm very jealous of your course in Mehico, that's going to be amazing.

Interestingly the reason you've given for using your line is essentially for when you are un-sighted. So even if you think you are using it as your primary, I wonder whether you are really using it mentally as your backup? Just a thought I had upoon re-reading your post.

And you're instructor made a good point which you should have guessed. I guess. Taking an unknown shortcut, whether on land or sea rarely turns out to be short

Have a wonderful time on your course and be sure to post your report here for us to savor! Best of luck mate.

J

 

[laurin]

Ok so I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but what happens if a tie-off comes lose? Is it question of reeling up til it's taut again and back tracking, or does one push forward to to find the next tie-off? Or, as most things in life, does it depend on how precarious the second to last tie-off is would be to shearing, the distance from the previous tie-off, nature of the cave, flow or expected flow etc.?

What is normal practise if otherwise taut line suddenly goes slack?

Depends a bit on the situation; it might be your reel line, or a permanent line in the cave, you might encounter it on entry or exit. You might know where the line was supposed to go or not.

I'd try to fix any loose or cut line as long as gas or other limits allow, other people might depend on the line; if it's your exit line, you're going to have to deal with it anyway. Avoid pulling on or reeling in any loose line unless you know EXACTLY where it's going and why it's loose - reeling it tight might pull the line into a trap or if the line was cut you'd just make the area without any line much bigger... Nylon cave line sinks slowly, so it's not a huge problem in the water unless there's loads of it freshly let loose.

I suppose generally the safest approach would be to tie into the tight line, make a second tie-off close by (to avoid pulling on the line) and follow the slack to find out the problem - if it's just a pulled tie-off it's probably easy to fix, cut line would take a bit more work. If I knew the place well I might also just follow the slack for a short distance to take a quick look, with a buddy staying on the last good tie-off for reference.

//LN

 

[InTheDrink]

BTW - re getting a cheap reel to practice on. Hmmm, think I flunked that one and have ordered a H pathfinder.

As RJP always says 'train in your gear and gear in your train' or something like that. Oh hang on, Dive as you train and train as you dive? Oh well, something like that. You get the idea.

Wow. I am excited. A week ago I wouldn't have known a pathfinder if I'd wrapped myself up in one. Now I can't wait to wrap myself up in it

J

 

[InTheDrink]

Depends a bit on the situation; it might be your reel line, or a permanent line in the cave, you might encounter it on entry or exit. You might know where the line was supposed to go or not.

I'd try to fix any loose or cut line as long as gas or other limits allow, other people might depend on the line; if it's your exit line, you're going to have to deal with it anyway. Avoid pulling on or reeling in any loose line unless you know EXACTLY where it's going and why it's loose - reeling it tight might pull the line into a trap or if the line was cut you'd just make the area without any line much bigger... Nylon cave line sinks slowly, so it's not a huge problem in the water unless there's loads of it freshly let loose.

I suppose generally the safest approach would be to tie into the tight line, make a second tie-off close by (to avoid pulling on the line) and follow the slack to find out the problem - if it's just a pulled tie-off it's probably easy to fix, cut line would take a bit more work. If I knew the place well I might also just follow the slack for a short distance to take a quick look, with a buddy staying on the last good tie-off for reference.

//LN

Thanks for your response. Wonderful context dependent response which really helps me think about the different possible responses to different situations, rather than a 'DO THIS UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES' approach which simply confuses.

Cheers,
J

 

[Sas]

One aspect about both wreck penetration and cave diving that concerns me is my sense of direction. It's naturally piss poor (I'm dynamite with numbers though ).

How big a deal do you think this might be and any thoughts on steps to mitigate this unfortunate disposition? Or is it just a question of focussing on it more and seeing whether I improve? And what would you consider 'it' - compass work, landmark recognition, counting fin kicks, checking behind as well as in front? Any other things that are useful to keep one's sense of orientation and to feel and read the cave?

Cheers,
J

Don't worry, for people like us cave diving is good as you have a line to follow

There isn't any permanent line in the caves locally (other than one) but I guess there must be in most other places judging by the comments (which is cool!). You are taught how to place markers/cookies and line arrows on the line for direction also as well as the line. For example if you come up to an intersection that looks like a + you put a marker on the exit side so if you are coming back without any viz you can feel for where your marker is and now that you are heading towards the exit. In black out these things are *awesome* You learn things like that and how to install jumps and gaps at Cave level. I didn't learn this at Cavern though so maybe you won't learn this.

You also get taught how to lay the line and what happens if you encounter other line. With placing tie-offs, well I am still not great at that but you get taught how to avoid line traps (say a tie-off comes off and gets pulled under a restriction, you can't follow it back out easily and this is a Bad Thing), and also just how to make it easier when following in no viz (like don't put it in a big zig zag, try to follow the contours of the cave). This was done in my cavern class and stressed a lot more at cave level.

Also with loose line, you really don't want this at all. So reel in until it is taut (if you know why it is loose otherwise read laurin's post). We had lots of loose line to deal with in our course due to instructor shenanigans and a buddy can help you with that (one of us would hold it taut towards the reel, have the slack between both hands so the line stays taught and you slowly feed them the slack). Again something I learned in Cavern (sometimes I get confused which class I did what in )

When laying line too I hold the reel out to the side so I am not running the line below me (if I drop my knees for whatever reason the line will try to entangle anything in its path). A lot of people got their fins trapped in the line because they had it kinda running between their legs.

I have reel envy now, have fun with your new reel

 

[InTheDrink]

Also with loose line, you really don't want this at all. So reel in until it is taut (if you know why it is loose otherwise read laurin's post). We had lots of loose line to deal with in our course due to instructor shenanigans and a buddy can help you with that (one of us would hold it taut towards the reel, have the slack between both hands so the line stays taught and you slowly feed them the slack). Again something I learned in Cavern (sometimes I get confused which class I did what in )

I gotta go to bed now, I'm still ill.


However, would be great if you could elucidate the above statement re loose line. My reading of what your saving is that the diver with the line holds still (does not release any further line). Other diver (buddy let's say) finds line and pulls until taut with slack going ahead or behind him and then moves along the slack taking up line and/or with the reel diver reeling in? Sorry, I struggled to understand what you were trying to demonstrate.

Thx,
J

 

[Sas]

However, would be great if you could elucidate the above statement re loose line. My reading of what your saving is that the diver with the line holds still (does not release any further line). Other diver (buddy let's say) finds line and pulls until taut with slack going ahead or behind him and then moves along the slack taking up line and/or with the reel diver reeling in? Sorry, I struggled to understand what you were trying to demonstrate.

Rest up..

Well what we did is that when we encountered loose line when reeling back in, the person not reeling would hold the line taut to the reel with one hand and taut to the tie off with the other and the loose line in between the two hands like a U. Then would slowly feed the loose line back to the person reeling in and when it was taut to the tie off again, we would carry on. Maybe others have better methods.

We worked together a lot like that. When we were reeling in, the person without the reel would undo tie offs and things like that. And when we were laying line the other person would check all the tie offs. That's stuff to think about too, how you will work together with your buddy and help them out. I think this made things run a lot smoother though there are times when you should let the person on the reel undo their ties (I got pulled up for undoing one right near a restriction that only one of us could fit through at a time and where you get through on a sharp angle when my buddy wasn't close enough to the restriction to see the path of the line through it).

 

[Indian Valley Scuba]

Best of luck in your classes and training. So many options, but so much more serious thinking than open water.