Leisure Pro bait and switch still happening - warning.

[k ellis]

You know I ordered a BCD from leisurepro which was a zeagle zeus and got it at a great price and asked the rep specificly if it had the new adapter to where I could just screw on an octo z and then unscrew it so I could place a water hose in it to flush it. He stated yes so I ordered it. I got the older model though which did not have this on it so I was a little bummed but for the price I paid for it I was actually ok. I simply called Zeagle and they sent me the correct parts.

Leisurepro does make a lot of mistakes and often they are viewed as being bad business. But before anyone should go and tear them apart I think its only fair to try every possible avenue to attempt to get things made right. Yes I was mad about my experience but again the substantial savings I got could not be beat so I was ok with having to do a little leg work and have large amounts of cash in my pocket

 

[mike_s]

So, their prices are low, but charge more for shipping ?? Sounds like "a wash" to me. You end up paying the about the same, as anywhere else. Kinda like "the coffee is free, the cups are $2".

I never got "free shipping" from them.... which kinda sucks since other sites offer it, but I've got to agree, the better price negates that.


If you buy it from you LDS, you have to pay sales tax, which is typically more than $10-$15 average shipping cost. so it's a wash.



I buy 98% of my stuff from my LDS, which will match or beat LP's price and offers great customer service. The only time I need to buy something from LP or another shop is why my LDS doesn't carry it. so the shipping prices aren't typically an issue.

 

[scubamarketing]

I also don't think this was a "bug" on their website. I call BS on this. They've known about it for years and kept doing it, sent email offers of "substitute" of a great deal.

...

I mean, don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining..... It wasn't no "freaking website bug".

I take it you've never managed an international ecommerce website before I run the BLOG and I can personally attest that there are bugs just in that! From a guy who works for LP, my best guess is the hasn't been a big enough stink raised over this issue (until now) for it to be brought to management's desk. Now it has (and I hope people will continue to let me know if it happens again on other products) and it's being fixed. Just like how prices were different if viewed from a mobile browser versus a desktop browser; that issue was brought to my attention, I sent it to my manager, it was fixed. Just like in that case, some people will be upset because they're not getting a newer (I didn't say "better") product at a much better price.

I am glad LP pulled the ads - but BAIT and SWITCH - DOES NOT have to be a higher priced product. Advertising one thing, with the advanced knowledge that you will be substituting it with something else - particularly when the first is a better known, more established IS IN FACT bait and switch. To try to claim anything different is deceptive.

Thank you for pulling the ad LP.

Sorry, I was pre-law at one point and my sis did the whole law school thing, so I just need to clarify that "bait and switch" is legally defined as:

A deceptive sales technique that involves advertising a low-priced item to attract customers to a store, then persuading them to buy more expensive goods by failing to have a sufficient supply of the advertised item on hand or by disparaging its quality.

I've ordered from Amazon, had my account charged and waited...and waited...and several months later was told the item I paid for isn't available, but the new version is available for more. THAT is bait and switch, but it's from one of the largest, "most trusted" online retailers. What I'm getting at is that when maintaining multiple sales channels (store, online, ebay, Amazon, affiliates), there can be the occasional problem. Once the right people know about it, we can work on fixing it.

re-reading the first post though, doing this via EBAY that you pointed out (and not just their website) when you say you've got the product and someone bid's on it only to find out what they won wasn't what they were bidding on, and getting sold something else like the IQ-700, I can see where this would EASILY frustrate someone. It definitely is a case of "bait and switch".

See above re: bait and switch

I'm really disappointed to hear this. I've purchased from LP many times and never had a bad experience. Am I the exception that proves the rule?

Statistically, no We have plenty of happy customers every single day.

I've bought from them 4 or 5 times and never had a bad experience but that does not mean they are not practicing illegal or just plain wrong business practices. They want money like any other business and that will eventually lead to shifty dealing with some people.

I tend to expect a business to live up to its end of the deal and if that means selling me the computer that I researched and decided on that they said was in stock, then that is exactly and only what I expect. Anything more or less is unacceptable. If a company tells me after a transaction that their inventory was wrong, I cancel my order and buy someplace else, end of story. Only once have I had a company act slowly in crediting my money back.

Mike got sold what he deemed to be a better computer at a great deal. That is great but we do not know that LP has been that upstanding on every transaction. If they are willing to post false information on their website in order to attract people only to switch gears last second, then what else are they willing to do? How far down that slope will they go? Only they know and of course they will tell us they would never do anything bad.

I for one will continue shopping with them but I will stick by my position that they must do what they promised or they lose the sale. That works for me and may not for someone else. I will not try to persuade some to buy from them or to not buy from them. I for one like LP and believe they get an undeserved bad rap most of the time.

Wow, such doom 'n gloom Again everybody, it was a bug. It probably isn't the only bug. I've been designing ecommerce systems for ages and unfortunately these things happen. If there are other bugs and people tell me, I'll be sure to get them fixed. Perhaps there isn't enough communication about these things (I'm not physically in the office to know), so that's why I greatly appreciate people letting me know so I can get the information in the hands of the correct people.

I bought many items from them without problems. My only complaint is their shipping costs tend to run high and they don't offer free shipping on orders over $50 as Scubatoys does.

Adam

We have free shipping on many items, but not everything, you're right. In my testing having identical items shipped to Oregon (so all the way across the country), shipping prices from all of the online retailers is virtually identical. If you could provide me with examples, I'd be more than happy to look into it. Does our price match +5% make up for the shipping price compared to other online retailers?

So, their prices are low, but charge more for shipping ?? Sounds like "a wash" to me. You end up paying the about the same, as anywhere else. Kinda like "the coffee is free, the cups are $2". The key for me is "after the sale" or being an actual "Authorized Dealer or Re-Seller", in the event of a warranty or repair situation. While I'm not implying anything bad or negative about LeisurePro, (as I have purchased from what I believe is their sister company, Adorama with no issues), I find it interesting that Aqualung has an entire web page dedicated to the fact that LeisurePro is absolutely NOT an Authorised Dealer or Re-Seller of their products.

We're Authorized Dealers for most of the products we sell. Yes, Aqualung is an exception, but you'll also notice we hardly sell any Aqualung items. I "grew up" in an Aqualung shop and their anti-online fight seems pretty hypocritical now that they sell online direct. For the items that don't come with the manufacturers warranty, we offer one equal to or better than. And, as I've posted on SB several times before, not every local dive store will actually repair in store either, they send it in. So the wait is the same. The only time I took advantage of a warranty, the manufacturer lost my computer and I ended up spending hundreds to get a new one, so the warranty argument has no air for me I know others who live by the warranty though, to each their own.

You know I ordered a BCD from leisurepro which was a zeagle zeus and got it at a great price and asked the rep specificly if it had the new adapter to where I could just screw on an octo z and then unscrew it so I could place a water hose in it to flush it. He stated yes so I ordered it. I got the older model though which did not have this on it so I was a little bummed but for the price I paid for it I was actually ok. I simply called Zeagle and they sent me the correct parts.

Leisurepro does make a lot of mistakes and often they are viewed as being bad business. But before anyone should go and tear them apart I think its only fair to try every possible avenue to attempt to get things made right. Yes I was mad about my experience but again the substantial savings I got could not be beat so I was ok with having to do a little leg work and have large amounts of cash in my pocket

I'm not sure it's fair to say we make a lot of mistakes Of the number of orders placed/shipped daily, the "mistake percent" is incredibly low. I'm glad things worked out though and I couldn't agree more with your statement "before anyone should go and tear them apart I think its only fair to try every possible avenue to attempt to get things made right." I recommend this for any transaction in life, not just with us. When it comes to LeisurePro, put me on speed dial, I have access to the correct ears


A question for everybody:

You order an item that shows in stock online (us or anywhere). You receive an email saying it's out of stock, the company isn't sure when/if it will be in stock again, but you're offered the new model (again, not necessarily a direct replacement or better) at the same price or the option to cancel your order. In your opinion, what is the correct way for the online business to handle the situation to satisfy you as the customer?

Thanks again for all of the feedback, my goal is to use all of this information to make sure these kinds of things don't happen in the future.

 

[ScubaSteve]

A question for everybody:

You order an item that shows in stock online (us or anywhere). You receive an email saying it's out of stock, the company isn't sure when/if it will be in stock again, but you're offered the new model (again, not necessarily a direct replacement or better) at the same price or the option to cancel your order. In your opinion, what is the correct way for the online business to handle the situation to satisfy you as the customer?

Thanks again for all of the feedback, my goal is to use all of this information to make sure these kinds of things don't happen in the future.

Take it off the IN STOCK list. That seems to be what you guys have missed. Second to that, put better inventory control processes in place so your inventory is not inaccurate.

If you do all of that and that one in a million chance happens where you sell the last item immediately before another buyer clicks purchase, then you could program the system to check inventory levels prior to actually creating the order so that the buyer gets notified that the inventory level changed while they were entering their order. To me that would be better than waiting and then offering something else.......BUT I do cancel the order as soon as I learn the company has failed to perform.

 

[k ellis]

I'm not sure it's fair to say we make a lot of mistakes Of the number of orders placed/shipped daily, the "mistake percent" is incredibly low. I'm glad things worked out though and I couldn't agree more with your statement "before anyone should go and tear them apart I think its only fair to try every possible avenue to attempt to get things made right." I recommend this for any transaction in life, not just with us. When it comes to LeisurePro, put me on speed dial, I have access to the correct ears

Ok I should have been a little more clear i admit that my wording could have been better. Heres what I really meant. --- Sure leisurepro makes alot of mistakes (not just in shipping but the overal operation) but its not just leisurepro. Its called the human factor and it can happen anywhere any time a human is involved. People will make mistakes but its only fair to point it out to them and allow them a chance to make it right. Some avenues may not be as obvious or as open such as contacting you on scubaboard but it does work alot of times to try every avenue possible I have no complaints about leisurepro and to be quiet honest I have always been given the choice to get a diffrent product when one I ordered was out of stock. To be a bait and switch would be to order something only to receive it on your doorstep and open it to find something diffrent.

Also guys just an FYI People cant fix problems that have not been addressed. Now that they have been addressed hopefully they will get them fixed!

Make no mistake Leisurepro is one of my favorite places to buy gear because they have made it somewhat affordable compared to alot of guys making divers give up their hobbies due to lack of ability to buy gear. I just wanted to put it straight that when you have humans doing anything in life their is a certain margin of error. Then when you go and increase the size of the operation with even more people involved and entire departments working independent of one another that margin of error begins to grow with the increase in size of the operation.

 

[scubamarketing]

Take it off the IN STOCK list. That seems to be what you guys have missed. Second to that, put better inventory control processes in place so your inventory is not inaccurate.

If you do all of that and that one in a million chance happens where you sell the last item immediately before another buyer clicks purchase, then you could program the system to check inventory levels prior to actually creating the order so that the buyer gets notified that the inventory level changed while they were entering their order. To me that would be better than waiting and then offering something else.......BUT I do cancel the order as soon as I learn the company has failed to perform.

You're definitely right and I'll be sure to pass this along. Again, not being in the warehouse, I'm not sure what we can do regarding upgrading inventory systems. As I've stated previously, I've run into inaccurate "In Stock" labels online with bigger retailers (aka deeper pockets to invest in systems) like Amazon, Newegg, Zappos and Apple, so I'm not sure there's such thing as a perfect inventory system. But it's been passed along and I'm confident the quality assurance will improve.

Ok I should have been a little more clear i admit that my wording could have been better. Heres what I really meant. --- Sure leisurepro makes alot of mistakes (not just in shipping but the overal operation) but its not just leisurepro. Its called the human factor and it can happen anywhere any time a human is involved. People will make mistakes but its only fair to point it out to them and allow them a chance to make it right. Some avenues may not be as obvious or as open such as contacting you on scubaboard but it does work alot of times to try every avenue possible I have no complaints about leisurepro and to be quiet honest I have always been given the choice to get a diffrent product when one I ordered was out of stock. To be a bait and switch would be to order something only to receive it on your doorstep and open it to find something diffrent.

Also guys just an FYI People cant fix problems that have not been addressed. Now that they have been addressed hopefully they will get them fixed!

Make no mistake Leisurepro is one of my favorite places to buy gear because they have made it somewhat affordable compared to alot of guys making divers give up their hobbies due to lack of ability to buy gear. I just wanted to put it straight that when you have humans doing anything in life their is a certain margin of error. Then when you go and increase the size of the operation with even more people involved and entire departments working independent of one another that margin of error begins to grow with the increase in size of the operation.

It looks like you and I share the same philosophies

 

[mike_s]

I take it you've never managed an international ecommerce website before I run the BLOG and I can personally attest that there are bugs just in that!

I've run websites that get 40,000 hits per minute... and know they are full of bugs.

at the same time, LP knew about this for over a year and the same employee offered me the same deal 2 or 3 times when I tried to order this. and others were offered the same deal.

so I'm just saying, this was a KNOWN THING and not a bug. In my opinion this doesn't mean that this was handled with any deception as everyone was offered a good deal that they could then choose if they wanted, or not.

99% of the customers came away happy. maybe 99.9%.

Just like how prices were different if viewed from a mobile browser versus a desktop browser; that issue was brought to my attention, I sent it to my manager, it was fixed. Just like in that case, some people will be upset because they're not getting a newer (I didn't say "better") product at a much better price.

Funny you mention this....

because now the cheap price on the IQ-700 is gone, and so is the "offer of a better deal". Same thing happened with the "mobile browers app issue" on the fins. Because someone complained, they found the issue, and fixed the 'problem' causing the price of the fins to go up to a higher price.

so someone fussing about the difference in price resulted in the price going up..... oh well..

Sorry, I was pre-law at one point and my sis did the whole law school thing, so I just need to clarify that "bait and switch" is legally defined as:

A deceptive sales technique that involves advertising a low-priced item to attract customers to a store, then persuading them to buy more expensive goods by failing to have a sufficient supply of the advertised item on hand or by disparaging its quality.

You'll find other versions of that definition that don't terms requiring "them to buy more expensive goods".

some will argue that the Iq-750 is not as good as the IQ-700. I can see their argument.
They can also say "no" they don't want this deal, or counter offer with another product.

so some would consider this still "bait and switch". I would agree but that it's not being done fraudulently or with deception.



Heck, if people want other examples of this, watch any Automotive sales commercial. They'll say stuff like "Chevy Tahoe's from $35k" and when you get there, it's the basic stripped down model with vinyl seats, no CD player, no Nav system, etc. If you want "all the options", you easily pay $10k more. Some might call it "up selling", but it's a basic example of advertising for one thing to get people to come in and buy something better. AND IT WORKS, otherwise it wouldn't be used in marketing.

We're Authorized Dealers for most of the products we sell. Yes, Aqualung is an exception, but you'll also notice we hardly sell any Aqualung items. I "grew up" in an Aqualung shop and their anti-online fight seems pretty hypocritical now that they sell online direct. .

Bravo, Bravo, Bravo! my thoughts exactly.

Take it off the IN STOCK list. That seems to be what you guys have missed. Second to that, put better inventory control processes in place so your inventory is not inaccurate.

Heck... they are not different than other vendors. Even Amazon will say "Only 3 left in stock" to get you to order now"


If I owned a online parts place, I'd prob take orders for out of stock items. Especially when chances are they can get restocked in a couple days sometimes. Go look at what Scuba.com does.... they don't stock most of their inventory but just do weekly manufacturer orders based on weekly orders. Keeps their overhead real low on what's in stock, which means less money sitting in inventory gathering dust and more profits for them. (just another business model, and they seem to be doing decent at it).

 

[ChrisV]

I am looking at ordering an Back Inflate BC and saw this post and got worried for a second....
after reading all this it sounds like LP is doing the right thing when a mistake pops up (either human or bug) and notifying the customer of and out of stock item and giving an upgrade/equivalant item for no additional cost.

If I order this BC and it needs to be upgraded at no cost, trust me I wont complain

 

[manni-yunk]

I take it you've never managed an international ecommerce website before I run the BLOG and I can personally attest that there are bugs just in that! From a guy who works for LP, my best guess is the hasn't been a big enough stink raised over this issue (until now) for it to be brought to management's desk. Now it has (and I hope people will continue to let me know if it happens again on other products) and it's being fixed. Just like how prices were different if viewed from a mobile browser versus a desktop browser; that issue was brought to my attention, I sent it to my manager, it was fixed. Just like in that case, some people will be upset because they're not getting a newer (I didn't say "better") product at a much better price.



Sorry, I was pre-law at one point and my sis did the whole law school thing, so I just need to clarify that "bait and switch" is legally defined as:


I've ordered from Amazon, had my account charged and waited...and waited...and several months later was told the item I paid for isn't available, but the new version is available for more. THAT is bait and switch, but it's from one of the largest, "most trusted" online retailers. What I'm getting at is that when maintaining multiple sales channels (store, online, ebay, Amazon, affiliates), there can be the occasional problem. Once the right people know about it, we can work on fixing it.



See above re: bait and switch



Statistically, no We have plenty of happy customers every single day.



Wow, such doom 'n gloom Again everybody, it was a bug. It probably isn't the only bug. I've been designing ecommerce systems for ages and unfortunately these things happen. If there are other bugs and people tell me, I'll be sure to get them fixed. Perhaps there isn't enough communication about these things (I'm not physically in the office to know), so that's why I greatly appreciate people letting me know so I can get the information in the hands of the correct people.



We have free shipping on many items, but not everything, you're right. In my testing having identical items shipped to Oregon (so all the way across the country), shipping prices from all of the online retailers is virtually identical. If you could provide me with examples, I'd be more than happy to look into it. Does our price match +5% make up for the shipping price compared to other online retailers?



We're Authorized Dealers for most of the products we sell. Yes, Aqualung is an exception, but you'll also notice we hardly sell any Aqualung items. I "grew up" in an Aqualung shop and their anti-online fight seems pretty hypocritical now that they sell online direct. For the items that don't come with the manufacturers warranty, we offer one equal to or better than. And, as I've posted on SB several times before, not every local dive store will actually repair in store either, they send it in. So the wait is the same. The only time I took advantage of a warranty, the manufacturer lost my computer and I ended up spending hundreds to get a new one, so the warranty argument has no air for me I know others who live by the warranty though, to each their own.



I'm not sure it's fair to say we make a lot of mistakes Of the number of orders placed/shipped daily, the "mistake percent" is incredibly low. I'm glad things worked out though and I couldn't agree more with your statement "before anyone should go and tear them apart I think its only fair to try every possible avenue to attempt to get things made right." I recommend this for any transaction in life, not just with us. When it comes to LeisurePro, put me on speed dial, I have access to the correct ears


A question for everybody:

You order an item that shows in stock online (us or anywhere). You receive an email saying it's out of stock, the company isn't sure when/if it will be in stock again, but you're offered the new model (again, not necessarily a direct replacement or better) at the same price or the option to cancel your order. In your opinion, what is the correct way for the online business to handle the situation to satisfy you as the customer?

Thanks again for all of the feedback, my goal is to use all of this information to make sure these kinds of things don't happen in the future.

Seriously - I dont care it you were pre-law, a lawyer, or on the supreme court. Legal definition - please site a reference for this 'legal definition' that applies EVERYWHERE. Laws are different everywhere and you actually expect us to believe that there is a universally accepted LEGAL DEFINITION of bait and switch....... Seriously. Federal, State, and local laws all have their own specifics.


Also - I am in sales and have been my entire career - the UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED working definition of bait and switch is varied and extremely wide in scope. Working definition and legal are two different things and since we are not in court - you can figure which one is more applicable. - advertising a product who generate interest knowing that you intend, or require to change it to something else. YES - often bait and switch involves a higher priced product, but another ideration is when the advertised product was never available in the first place. I am not talking about a situation where charges could be pressed, but one where a clear moral and ethical violation occurs that shows the character of an organization.

Its pretty simple.



I was prepared to let this die and I CANNOT believe that a rep of the company who was "pre law (who cares)" , and who runs a blog.......is actually taking the time to argue what bait and switch is.....


This is clear as day.


ALSO - it has happened for YEARS. It has been posted on this website and others, and I know I alerted LP - as have several others - and it continued to happed.


BTW - thank you for convincing me to be done with LP.


All you had to do is say " it was a screw up, I fixed it and we ar sorry'. Not debate semantics. If that is the culture of LP, then Scubatoys just landed another customer (when my LDS cant get something).

Good luck with your blog.


And as for the mobile browser price difference - that is a known, perfectly legal tactic taken by many organizations. Thought being that if you look it up from your phone, you might be on the verge of buying it in a store and the mobile browser drop bottom price is a last ditch effort to steal the sale.

VERY common.

 

[mike_s]

99% of the customers came away happy. maybe 99.9%.

well it's pretty clear the above poster fits in that .1 % of "not happy". Prob never will be.

BTW - thank you for convincing me to be done with LP.


All you had to do is say " it was a screw up, I fixed it and we ar sorry'. Not debate semantics. If that is the culture of LP, then Scubatoys just landed another customer (when my LDS cant get something).

Hate to tell you this, but since you used Scuba Toys as an example, but I've had ScubaToys (and even other shops) do this same thing. Their website says it was in stock, I tried to order it, they were out and offered another substitute item.

It's no different than what LP has done.



What you're mad about is that you didn't get a computer that isn't made anymore at essentially 50% discount instead of having to pay more for the new model. You glady said you would have "jumped on this price" to get one (if it was available) . Me thinks you'z just likes to whine.

Glad I bought my 2 Zeagle N2itions from the LDS - but I would have jumped at this price to get one for my wife.