LDS fails to deliver OW portion of PADI rescue, says tough luck

[Hawkwood]

They really should have a look at their website and fix it up. PADI Rescue Diver vs. SSI Stress and Rescue.

Can you spot a significant difference in the course descriptions?

There is, and it relates to whether open water dives are included or not. One specifically states they are not included, the other does not mention open water dives. Both only refer to class and pool.

PADI Rescue Diver
Monday, June 18, 2012 - Sunday, June 24, 2012
Price - US $260.00
Become a better diver and a better buddy with a Rescue Diver specialty. Learn to recognize signs of stress in yourself and your dive buddies and techniques to assist when things get rough. This class requires CPR, O2, and First Aid for final certification. Tuition includes educational materials.
Links:	New Link
Sessions/Locations:	Classroom Session	Mon Jun 18	6:00 PM - 9:00 PM
	Classroom Session	Wed Jun 20	6:00 PM - 9:00 PM
	Pool Session	Sat Jun 23	8:00 AM - 12:00 PM
	Pool Session	Sun Jun 24	8:00 AM - 12:00 PM

SSI Stress and Rescue
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - Tuesday, July 31, 2012
Price - US $234.99
Become a better diver and a better buddy with a Stress and Rescue specialty. Learn to recognize signs of stess in yourself and your dive buddies and techniques to assist when things get rough. Price includes materials ($59.00) and tuition ($175.00). Does not include open water trip for certification. This class requires CPR O2 and First Aid for final certification.
Sessions/Locations:	Classroom	Wed Jul 25	6:00 PM - 9:00 PM
	Pool Day one	Sat Jul 28	8:00 AM - 12:00 AM
	Refresher and intro to rescue
	Pool Day two	Sun Jul 29	8:00 AM - 12:00 AM
	Rescue class completion

 

[Laurie S.]

Seems clear to me that the OW price includes the COST of the c-card, but that does not mean that the card will be supplied until/unless the student completes the requirements for certification... one of those requirements is the OW Dives component, which are clearly NOT included in the course/cost.

By extension of your contention, the shop would have to issue the C-Card even if the student doesn't pass the course... simply because they paid for it.

Seems pretty reasonable to me that a dive shop in TUCSON ARIZONA would offer/price their courses without the OW dives.

Both my OW and rescue courses in Tucson were priced with the trip to San Carlos included. Why would you offer a course that required non pool dives for completion any other way?

 

[Hawkwood]

In areas where you do not have access year-round to open water, or where going to open water requires significant travel, you can offer the class and pool scenarios alone and let the student arrange for the open water portions at another time or elsewhere. Much in the same way that Open Water diver classes are offered.

We only do Rescue during the summer and fall months, and the price does include the open water session.

 

[Lorenzoid]

So if the course requires 3 elements for completion, and the student agrees to sign up for - and pays for 2-of-the-3 - that the shop still needs to deliver the third part? Even though the student neither signed up for nor paid for the third part? Seems an odd thought to me.

Well that's the issue: When a student "signs up," what do he and the shop understand he is signing up for? I find it hard to believe that a student would knowingly sign up for only a classroom portion of a class with the understanding that the shop has no obligation to provide the open water portion. Suppose (as another poster indicated) the shop worded it this way: "Open Water Class Fees: $195.00 per person includes . . . . This does not include Open Water dives, required for certification." One interpretation is that the FEES do not include the cost of Open Water dives. That is, the statement is strictly referring to fees, not any other obligation resulting from the student "signing up." It doesn't say that the CLASS that the shop agreed to provide doesn't include scheduling open water dives. In other words, one could argue that by accepting the student's registration and a fee of $195 that covers the classroom portion, the shop obligated itself to later also schedule the open water portion and the student obligated himself to later also pay for the open water portion when a trip was scheduled.

 

[Doubler]

I think the shop is being a bad actor and should send the guy a list of their upcoming trips with prices so he can finish his certification. While maybe "technically" they finished their obligation, morally they are far, far from completion. Swallow your pride and do the right thing. None of this appears to be the students fault so make it right. My 2 cents.

 

[manni-yunk]

So if the course requires 3 elements for completion, and the student agrees to sign up for - and pays for 2-of-the-3 - that the shop still needs to deliver the third part? Even though the student neither signed up for nor paid for the third part? Seems an odd thought to me.

I think you and I are looking at it different. In my mind - when the student signs up for, and pays for the first 2 parts (classroom and pool), the clear indication is that they want to complete the last aprt as soon as readily available. When the shop accepted the money and provided the training for the first 2 parts - they are still on the hook for the third as long as they still have a willing student.

REMEMBER - the shop has now been paid and part of that payment will eventually go to PADI as the CERT FEE....however - if the shop nevers helps get the last stage done......it stays in their pocket.


I clearly see how there is still a fee to be paid to the shop, or boat, or WHOMEVER is finalizing the check out dives.....but the SHOP accepted the responsibility of "selling" the training class"...and now, after only doing 2 of the 3 required steps.....believes they have fulfilled their commitment?????? I think their commitment is to COMPLETE or FACILITATE until 1 of 2 things has hapened:

1) Stident is no longer responsive to the shop and lo longer wants to perform the check out dives
2) Training is done

---------- Post Merged at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:02 PM ----------

So if the course requires 3 elements for completion, and the student agrees to sign up for - and pays for 2-of-the-3 - that the shop still needs to deliver the third part? Even though the student neither signed up for nor paid for the third part? Seems an odd thought to me.

---------- Post Merged at 04:04 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:02 PM ----------

Well that's the issue: When a student "signs up," what do he and the shop understand he is signing up for? I find it hard to believe that a student would knowingly sign up for only a classroom portion of a class with the understanding that the shop has no obligation to provide the open water portion. Suppose (as another poster indicated) the shop worded it this way: "Open Water Class Fees: $195.00 per person includes . . . . This does not include Open Water dives, required for certification." One interpretation is that the FEES do not include the cost of Open Water dives. That is, the statement is strictly referring to fees, not any other obligation resulting from the student "signing up." It doesn't say that the CLASS that the shop agreed to provide doesn't include scheduling open water dives. In other words, one could argue that by accepting the student's registration and a fee of $195 that covers the classroom portion, the shop obligated itself to later also schedule the open water portion and the student obligated himself to later also pay for the open water portion when a trip was scheduled.

AGREED 100%

---------- Post Merged at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:02 PM ----------

I think it is deceptive at best. Their description makes it clear that the additional cost of $200 is not included. But there is absolutely no suggestion that they might not even offer that part of the requirement.

EXACTLY..



Seems to be some agreement amongst the reasonable here....that....even though the COST and physical "signing up" part is not included with the original training........The DIve shop is STILL RESPONSIBILE to facilitate and offer the necessary steps required to complete the training - since they sold, and profited on, the original part.

Its seems extremely logical to me and any business entity, dive shop, etc that doesnt see it that way is entitled to their opinion - but they are also the type of business that better expect to never seem me as s customer!

 

[SC_Hoaty]

My OW cert included classroom, pool, and OW checkout. Some students opted to do the OW checkout at the Florida springs, others opted to do the OW checkout on a trip to West Palm. All students knew that the OW portion would have additonal costs - rental gear, lodging, admission or boat fees. What was NOT additional was the fee for the instructor on those dives - that was part of what was initially paid for. If you opted for a universal referral, then you should expect to pay the instructor there for their services, but as long as you stayed with the LDS and their trips, the instruction cost on the checkout dives was included.

As luck would have it, I opted for the WPB dives, and a hurricane played a trump card by sinking the dive boat. I finished in a local lake, but only had to pay for the rental gear, as the instruction fee was included in what I had already paid up front.

I suspect the OP thinks this is what he signed up for as well. Additional fees are only for additional expenses and not for instruction.

 

[manni-yunk]

My OW cert included classroom, pool, and OW checkout. Some students opted to do the OW checkout at the Florida springs, others opted to do the OW checkout on a trip to West Palm. All students knew that the OW portion would have additonal costs - rental gear, lodging, admission or boat fees. What was NOT additional was the fee for the instructor on those dives - that was part of what was initially paid for. If you opted for a universal referral, then you should expect to pay the instructor there for their services, but as long as you stayed with the LDS and their trips, the instruction cost on the checkout dives was included.

As luck would have it, I opted for the WPB dives, and a hurricane played a trump card by sinking the dive boat. I finished in a local lake, but only had to pay for the rental gear, as the instruction fee was included in what I had already paid up front.

I suspect the OP thinks this is what he signed up for as well. Additional fees are only for additional expenses and not for instruction.

Im not sure you understand his concern.

It really has nothing to do with the additional "COST" associated with his check out dives...its the dive shops inability to make the check out dives happen - and claim - that they have fulfilled their obligation.

 

[USFpsychDiver]

My contention is that the shop sold me an opportunity to receive a Rescue certification. There were some co-requisites clearly stated, i.e. O2, first aid, CPR, that were not included in the training. It was also clearly stated that the trip costs for the OW portion of the course were not included. However, I was not given the opportunity to complete the OW portion through the shop, and this seems to me a clear failure on the part of the shop to deliver the opportunity to earn Rescue certification. The shop's position is that it's up to me to obtain the final portion of the class with an instructor no longer affiliated with the shop. My position is that it is the shop's obligation to provide me an opportunity to complete the final portion of the class, at an additional fee (again, reasonable people can disagree whether or not $200 is a competitive for check-out dives in a public lake, tanks & weights provided, but that's not relevant to this discussion).

Recast this as an open water class. The shop offers open water training consisting of classroom sessions, pool sessions, and open water checkout dives, the cost of the open water checkout dives not included. The student is free to take the OW checkout dives with the shop, or go elsewhere for the checkout dives, and pay the additional cost somewhere else. The shop has said to the student "we have several trips a month where you can do your checkout dives", but then never has an instructor available on any of those trips to provide the OW checkouts. Has the shop met its obligation? I say "no", the shop says "yes".

If the shop said from the beginning clearly "we offer only the classroom and pool pool portion of the class; you will have to obtain the OW portion somewhere else" then we would have no issue. That isn't what happened. The shop made business decisions, one of which was to sever relationships with the PADI rescue instructor. I do no know what other business decisions the shop has made, perhaps the decision to sever left them with no other PADI rescue instructor, perhaps they decided to devote their limited instruction staff to the larger, more lucrative open water classes. That's fine, those are business decisions, but it has left two Rescue students in the lurch. We are now obligated to find an instructor willing to offer only the open water portion of the rescue course. Perhaps this will happen with our original instructor, but the shop is offering no guarantee of that, they're washing their hands of us, saying we're on our own. I consider that a breach of contract; the shop failing to provide the opportunity to earn Rescue certification.

 

[OldNSalty]

If I had signed up I would have assumed that I was going to have to pay for the open water part but that I would have a chance to take the open water part. I don't think you could reasonably infer it any other way. The shop can try and wiggle out but I don't think many people would sign up if it was understood that you get to take a class but there is no chance of getting certified because we will not do the water part.

Its like signing up for flight school only to find out that the instructor doesn't own a plane, is only qualified to teach ground school and has no desire to get you in the air...hope you enjoyed the book work.