LDS fails to deliver OW portion of PADI rescue, says tough luck

[KeithTheSnake]

I know it may sound like a wild idea, but how about you consider going directly to the instructor and asking him what he'll charge for the open water portion. It might be quite reasonable and you can have the whole thing over with. Doesn't sound like you have a beef with the instructor.

Sue the dive shop in small claims court if you like. It's pretty much a plaintiff's court. Except, of course, if the dive shop is any form of corporation the case will probably get removed to the general trial division. That'll be a huge pain in the ass over not much money. The shop will have its lawyer, and you'll be forced to either have a lawyer of your own or go without. Judge's often don't tolerate unrepresented parties who aren't familiar with court rules, rules of evidence and the statutes -- you'll be subject to them whether you know them or not.

If you cancel the credit card payment, is it your plan to just take the whole class over again through a different shop? It sounds like there's a problem between the instructor and the shop and you just got pinched in the middle of it all. I'm given the impression that the instructor is probably a contractor rather than an employee of the shop. Sometimes honest mistakes are made, and circumstances change. A good shop owner will do something to repair this mess.

See, that's why I'm struggling so much with this whole advanced instruction thing. Dive shops just don't operate like they used to. I don't get the feeling that there's any substance to them, the "classes" are scheduled when you can make them rather than set on a regular schedule, and I have concerns about continuity.

 

[PlanetScuba Tucson]

Hello divers,
This is Danya Goodwill from Planet Scuba. I want to clarify this diver's claim and explain why this resulted in our suggestion that he complete the OW checkout dives elsewhere.
Diver paid in full for materials and classwork for PADI rescue diver course. He successfully completed those courses. In our course description on our website, it clearly stated that diver would be responsible for Open Water dives not included in the price. His total fee was approximately $267.50, as he stated. For that fee he received class session, pool session, and his PADI rescue diver materials. Our pricing is competitive if not equal with all other shops in the area that offer a similar course with similar structure.
We did have a trip scheduled with him and the 2nd diver. The instructor was called away on emergency work and could not make the trip. The instructor would back up all this information given as well. The instructor who conducted the class and pool sessions is currently no longer with Planet Scuba, but had emailed this diver to co-ordinate a trip. They had a trip scheduled and the divers had to cancel that trip. This diver emailed us with specific dates that he is available. We do not have an instructor available on those dates, so it is unreasonable to put a trip together. Our fee for the lake pleasant trip with 4 dives, tanks and weights, is $200.00 not including lodging. We charge $10 additional instructor fee per dive for ANY checkout dives that qualify for any type of certification, from Open Water to Rescue.
We continued to suggest that this diver contact the instructor directly because we want him to have the best experience and certification possible. The instructor who gave the course is a fantastic, capable instructor. We as a shop are not interested in making money over this diver getting his certification. We could not provide a Planet Scuba instructor in the time frame he requested, so we suggested he schedule with his original instructor directly. As you all may know, any PADI certified and current Open Water instructor can do this gentleman's checkout dives, and we encourage him to find someone who can meet his schedule requirements!
We HAVE FULFILLED all obligations to him with regard to what he paid for, what we promised to deliver for that price, and what is expected in the course.
Thank you all for your input and thoughtfulness!
Sincerely,
Danya Goodwill
Planet Scuba Inc,
Tucson ARizona

---------- Post Merged at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:31 AM ----------

Additionally, the instructor involved and Planet Scuba have copies of all emails sent to this diver stating that the instructor would be happy to finish his certification at Lake Pleasant. While the instructor is no longer working with Planet Scuba, we have maintained contact between our two parties to ensure that we both do everything we can to accommodate this diver.

​

 

[redacted]

Hello divers,
This is Danya Goodwill from Planet Scuba. I want to clarify this diver's claim and explain why this resulted in our suggestion that he complete the OW checkout dives elsewhere.
Diver paid in full for materials and classwork for PADI rescue diver course. He successfully completed those courses. In our course description on our website, it clearly stated that diver would be responsible for Open Water dives not included in the price. His total fee was approximately $267.50, as he stated. For that fee he received class session, pool session, and his PADI rescue diver materials. Our pricing is competitive if not equal with all other shops in the area that offer a similar course with similar structure.
We did have a trip scheduled with him and the 2nd diver. The instructor was called away on emergency work and could not make the trip. The instructor would back up all this information given as well. The instructor who conducted the class and pool sessions is currently no longer with Planet Scuba, but had emailed this diver to co-ordinate a trip. They had a trip scheduled and the divers had to cancel that trip. This diver emailed us with specific dates that he is available. We do not have an instructor available on those dates, so it is unreasonable to put a trip together. Our fee for the lake pleasant trip with 4 dives, tanks and weights, is $200.00 not including lodging. We charge $10 additional instructor fee per dive for ANY checkout dives that qualify for any type of certification, from Open Water to Rescue.
We continued to suggest that this diver contact the instructor directly because we want him to have the best experience and certification possible. The instructor who gave the course is a fantastic, capable instructor. We as a shop are not interested in making money over this diver getting his certification. We could not provide a Planet Scuba instructor in the time frame he requested, so we suggested he schedule with his original instructor directly. As you all may know, any PADI certified and current Open Water instructor can do this gentleman's checkout dives, and we encourage him to find someone who can meet his schedule requirements!
We HAVE FULFILLED all obligations to him with regard to what he paid for, what we promised to deliver for that price, and what is expected in the course.
Thank you all for your input and thoughtfulness!
Sincerely,
Danya Goodwill
Planet Scuba Inc,
Tucson ARizona

---------- Post Merged at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:31 AM ----------

Additionally, the instructor involved and Planet Scuba have copies of all emails sent to this diver stating that the instructor would be happy to finish his certification at Lake Pleasant. While the instructor is no longer working with Planet Scuba, we have maintained contact between our two parties to ensure that we both do everything we can to accommodate this diver.

​

I did not find any description of your rescue diver course on your website - only description provided was for OW. Do you have some other link?

 

[Lorenzoid]

As another one of those lawyer types, this all sounds odd to me. Not having read the information on the shop's web site or seen the receipts or anything else that might relate to a contract, I can't comment on this specific case (and wouldn't even if I could). But speaking generally, it seems reasonable for a student who signs up for a course with a dive shop to believe that the dive shop was agreeing to provide an instructor and the opportunity to do the required open water dives, regardless of what portions the student may or may not have paid for in advance. I would be inclined to interpret a statement that "open water dives are not included in the price" as simply meaning that this is an out-of-pocket cost to be paid later by the student. I wouldn't necessarily interpret that as meaning that the shop did not obligate itself to provide the dives and an instructor. The obligation to provide an agreed-upon service isn't necessarily contingent on a party paying for it in advance. But again, I can speak only in generalities here. I hope the OP and the dive op can work this out.

 

[RJP]

We HAVE FULFILLED all obligations to him with regard to what he paid for, what we promised to deliver for that price, and what is expected in the course.
Thank you all for your input and thoughtfulness!
Sincerely,
Danya Goodwill
Planet Scuba Inc,
Tucson ARizona

Thanks for joining the discussion. Even in the OP's original post it sounded to me as if he signed up for "classroom and materials" with OW scenarios not included. Perhaps OP didn't understand that... sounds like he thought it didn't include "a trip" to do the OW dives, but did include the dives themselves?

Either way, underscores the need for a student understand exactly what is and is not included when signing up for a course. A little communication up-front usually saves a lot of grief later.

Ray

 

[manni-yunk]

Hello divers,
This is Danya Goodwill from Planet Scuba. I want to clarify this diver's claim and explain why this resulted in our suggestion that he complete the OW checkout dives elsewhere.
Diver paid in full for materials and classwork for PADI rescue diver course. He successfully completed those courses. In our course description on our website, it clearly stated that diver would be responsible for Open Water dives not included in the price. His total fee was approximately $267.50, as he stated. For that fee he received class session, pool session, and his PADI rescue diver materials. Our pricing is competitive if not equal with all other shops in the area that offer a similar course with similar structure.
We did have a trip scheduled with him and the 2nd diver. The instructor was called away on emergency work and could not make the trip. The instructor would back up all this information given as well. The instructor who conducted the class and pool sessions is currently no longer with Planet Scuba, but had emailed this diver to co-ordinate a trip. They had a trip scheduled and the divers had to cancel that trip. This diver emailed us with specific dates that he is available. We do not have an instructor available on those dates, so it is unreasonable to put a trip together. Our fee for the lake pleasant trip with 4 dives, tanks and weights, is $200.00 not including lodging. We charge $10 additional instructor fee per dive for ANY checkout dives that qualify for any type of certification, from Open Water to Rescue.
We continued to suggest that this diver contact the instructor directly because we want him to have the best experience and certification possible. The instructor who gave the course is a fantastic, capable instructor. We as a shop are not interested in making money over this diver getting his certification. We could not provide a Planet Scuba instructor in the time frame he requested, so we suggested he schedule with his original instructor directly. As you all may know, any PADI certified and current Open Water instructor can do this gentleman's checkout dives, and we encourage him to find someone who can meet his schedule requirements!
We HAVE FULFILLED all obligations to him with regard to what he paid for, what we promised to deliver for that price, and what is expected in the course.
Thank you all for your input and thoughtfulness!
Sincerely,
Danya Goodwill
Planet Scuba Inc,
Tucson ARizona

---------- Post Merged at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:31 AM ----------

Additionally, the instructor involved and Planet Scuba have copies of all emails sent to this diver stating that the instructor would be happy to finish his certification at Lake Pleasant. While the instructor is no longer working with Planet Scuba, we have maintained contact between our two parties to ensure that we both do everything we can to accommodate this diver.

​

I repectfully disagree that you have fulfilled your obligation.

I understand both sides of the argument - HOWEVER - I would contend that any training that involves a subsequent check out dive to complete, EVEN IF the fee for that check out dive is not included with the initial payment, is incumbent on the orginal shop that sold that training class to coordinate through completion. I would say your obligation is not fulfilled until the studenteither decides to not complete his check out dives, or, you have made every possible effort to coordinate in getting them done... And it does not seem as if you have.

Stating you have fulfilled your obligation, and therefore washing you hands of the situation, is bad for the long term training referrals to your shop.....or one would think.


But.....thats just my 2 cents and how I would feel.

 

[RJP]

I repectfully disagree that you have fulfilled your obligation.

I understand both sides of the argument - HOWEVER - I would contend that any training that involves a subsequent check out dive to complete, EVEN IF the fee for that check out dive is not included with the initial payment, is incumbent on the orginal shop that sold that training class to coordinate through completion. I would say your obligation is not fulfilled until the studenteither decides to not complete his check out dives, or, you have made every possible effort to coordinate in getting them done... And it does not seem as if you have.

Stating you have fulfilled your obligation, and therefore washing you hands of the situation, is bad for the long term training referrals to your shop.....or one would think.


But.....thats just my 2 cents and how I would feel.

So if the course requires 3 elements for completion, and the student agrees to sign up for - and pays for 2-of-the-3 - that the shop still needs to deliver the third part? Even though the student neither signed up for nor paid for the third part? Seems an odd thought to me.

 

[redacted]

So if the course requires 3 elements for completion, and the student agrees to sign up for - and pays for 2-of-the-3 - that the shop still needs to deliver the third part? Even though the student neither signed up for nor paid for the third part? Seems an odd thought to me.

How about if it requires multiple elements where one element (c-card) requires all other elements be completed and one element (OW dives) requires additional fees? Sounds to me like the shop may not have completed all their requirements and either has more to do (at additional cost to the customer) or owes the customer a refund.

Their OW description:

Open Water Class Fees:$195.00 per person includes tuition fees, student folder, learning materials, certification card, 6 months of Dive Training Magazine, Diver's Alert Network(DAN) insurance for your Open Water trip, rental BC, regulator, computer, wetsuit, and the classroom and pool courses. Students are responsible for providing mask, fins, snorkel and booties. Available at Planet Scuba for 15% off with student discount.
This does not include Open Water dives, required for certification.

 

[RJP]

How about if it requires multiple elements where one element (c-card) requires all other elements be completed and one element (OW dives) requires additional fees? Sounds to me like the shop may not have completed all their requirements and either has more to do (at additional cost to the customer) or owes the customer a refund.

Their OW description:

Open Water Class Fees:$195.00 per person includes tuition fees, student folder, learning materials, certification card, 6 months of Dive Training Magazine, Diver's Alert Network(DAN) insurance for your Open Water trip, rental BC, regulator, computer, wetsuit, and the classroom and pool courses. Students are responsible for providing mask, fins, snorkel and booties. Available at Planet Scuba for 15% off with student discount.
This does not include Open Water dives, required for certification.

Seems clear to me that the OW price includes the COST of the c-card, but that does not mean that the card will be supplied until/unless the student completes the requirements for certification... one of those requirements is the OW Dives component, which are clearly NOT included in the course/cost.

By extension of your contention, the shop would have to issue the C-Card even if the student doesn't pass the course... simply because they paid for it.

Seems pretty reasonable to me that a dive shop in TUCSON ARIZONA would offer/price their courses without the OW dives.

 

[redacted]

Seems clear to me that the OW price includes the COST of the c-card, but that does not mean that the card will be supplied until/unless the student completes the requirements for certification... one of those requirements is the OW Dives component, which are clearly NOT included in the course/cost.

By extension of your contention, the shop would have to issue the C-Card even if the student doesn't pass the course... simply because they paid for it.

Seems pretty reasonable to me that a dive shop in TUCSON ARIZONA would offer/price their courses without the OW dives.

I think it is deceptive at best. Their description makes it clear that the additional cost of $200 is not included. But there is absolutely no suggestion that they might not even offer that part of the requirement.