LDS Bashers

[PerroneFord]

TSandM, I think if all or most LDS's in the country would provide good customer service, stand behind what they sell, and generally come within 15-20% of other advertised prices, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'll give you recent example. I went to my LDS (who I like), to purchase a computer which they do not have in stock. After some delays, it came in. Some 30 days later. Unfortunately it came in without the downloader. I spoke to the owner. He showed me why he was confused and why the price I paid did not include the downloader. He sat me down in his office and called the regional sales rep. They talked for 45 minutes. The rep then called the manufacturer because HE got confused. Ten minutes later, the rep called back. The two of them discussed dealer cost, and MSRP, and what had gone wrong. The MSRP was 110% of retailrer cost. Thus allowing a retailer to give 10% to the customer while keeping the normal 100% margin.

At this point in my mind, I was thinking of asking the owner to split the difference between his cost and MSRP. I felt that would have been the fair thing to do since they messed up on the order and it wasn't my fault. When he hung up the phone, he apologized profusely, and said he would give me the unit at his cost. I never had to say a word. This incident highlights why this shop gets my business. In another instance less that 90 days prior, I did NOT give them my business on a $500 item because he would not budge on his price and I knew his margin was over 50%. No hard feelings, and I still supported the shop for other large purchases.

I think this is the give and take of a quality relationship between an LDS and a customer. Sometimes the LDS can afford to offer a break, sometimes they can't. But they can ALWAYS afford a smile, an explanation, and some good will. And that goes MUCH farther than price matching for most folks.

 

[WaterDawg]

And you, Mr. internet only shopper, should be able to waste his employees' time and use his store to see-touch-feel the products before you order on-line. In essence he is the free showroom for the internet providers.

Yeah that really sucks man. I've had people come in an waste my time w/ this kind of stuff before.

ALL brick and mortar shops face these same costs. So I did not factor them into my example.

No, I dont think that some of them have to pay the high insurance cost associated w/ diving and mixed gas filling.

 

[dbg40]

We live in a global economy. period. I have lost jobs before because of poor biusness practice, and poor economy,but somhow manage to get right back on the horse again. You cannot deny change, it will take you wearher you are ready to meet it or not. My meaning was only this, Change, or fail. I never stated that I did not buy from a LDS, only that, IF they are demanding an unfair price for an item, I will seek to buy elsewhere. Note,,I said "unfair" I routinely spend money at my chosen shop,and more times than not, spend more than I need. but they DO NOT have me as a captive audience, and when a purchace item is in excess of 50 or more dollars in difference, I go to the laptop and start hunting. With the difference, I would rather leave it in the bank, or take my wife to dinner.

 

[WaterDawg]

That it is way easier to say 'someone else' isn't letting me keep my money than saying "I wont give you the discount".

Not in my case, we wish a certain company would allow us to take even 10% off but they wont. In fact wether a customer ask for it or not we usually give them a 10% discount on gear. Anything at 25% or more discount and we actually loose $$.

Ther are usually different price "catergories" that a LDS falls into when buying gear from a dealer. some shops away from popular dive sites cant afford to buy at least 6 of each different regulators and therefore only make a slim margin of that brand. In fact last year w/ a certain brand we only made about 25% off the sale and really could not afford to give any discounts.

 

[Penopolypants]

I've said it before -- we have an excellent LDS. And it isn't just my perception -- they were honored by DEMA this year as one of the top 15 dive shops in the country. It's a friendly place and customer service is superb. Yes, they sell things. It's how they survive. And no, they can't or won't always match the prices available elsewhere. But my husband and I have made a decision that, if the LDS can come within 10 to 20 percent of the price elsewhere, we will buy at the LDS. Why? Because we want to support the business, which provides superb equipment servicing, stands behind the things it sells to sometimes an almost absurd degree, and has created an community of good people who share a love of diving.

Sometimes money is the critical aspect of a purchase. But it is always good to look at the other factors.

If your favorite LDS started selling products online with the full manufacturer's warranty, at lower prices, would you continue to buy from them? Or would you stop, because they're taking business away from the other (also great) LDS down the street who is not including online sales in their business and not lowering their prices?

Without training, expert advice, tank fills, etc., a LDS will go out of business. Without training, expert advice, tank fills, etc., very few people will dive, an online stores will go out of business, since no one is buying gear.

Most of the online retailers are also a LDS. They've found a happy medium that is working for their business - price, location, service. I believe that most dive shops are going to have to go that way eventually.

 

[PerroneFord]

No, I dont think that some of them have to pay the high insurance cost associated w/ diving and mixed gas filling.

Everyone has their burdens. You ever take a look at what auto retails pay in insurance costs to have several hundred thousand or millions of dollars of inventory out in the open on unsecured lots? And yet they manage with a ratio of 1 salesperson per 5-10 customers, and 12-14% profit margins. Most also operate service bays, and run an internet presence. They also often have to pay those service folk's advanced training, tool costs, etc.

Head to the local small shop in the mall and ask what they pay for rent. It's frightening, and I haven't looked at it in 10+ years.

While it's true that some businesses don't incur these special prices, many do. Larger retailers have to deal with healthcare costs. I'll put that cost against the insurance of a dive shop ANY day.

 

[genxweb]

My solution which might of been mentioned in the 5 pages of feedback is for the LDS to lower the prices to close to internet prices though to offeset the cost of buisness raise the cost of training. At alot of the local shops here their big money maker is the ow and aow certs and the ability sell gear and air fills is a second source of income.

 

[lamont]

Am I an LDS owner, no. Just someone schooled enough in economics to understand the principles behind retail economics...

No, you are actually obviously not schooled in economics.

As industries mature they tend to split into low-margin, high-volume business and high-margin, low-volume niches. This is exactly what we are seeing occur with diving equipment. Dive shops that have been following the model of making their air fills and training loss-leaders and selling high-margin equipment are going out of business to low margin internet resellers of gear. Getting on scubaboard isn't going to change the economic realities of this. As dive shops go under, there should be more pricing power available to the remaining dive shops so that they can adjust their training and fills to more reasonable prices and adjust their gear prices lower to compete with the internet shops. Any other model simply isn't going to survive. And economics doesn't care about the damage that is done to the diving industry and scuba diving in the process -- that is why economics is called the 'dismal science' -- and this is really a pretty cheery outcome compared to how dismal economics can get...

If you actually understood economics, you'd understand that your entire post was just pissing into the wind...

 

[JeffG]

No, you are actually obviously not schooled in economics.

As industries mature they tend to split into low-margin, high-volume business and high-margin, low-volume niches. This is exactly what we are seeing occur with diving equipment. Dive shops that have been following the model of making their air fills and training loss-leaders and selling high-margin equipment are going out of business to low margin internet resellers of gear. Getting on scubaboard isn't going to change the economic realities of this. As dive shops go under, there should be more pricing power available to the remaining dive shops so that they can adjust their training and fills to more reasonable prices and adjust their gear prices lower to compete with the internet shops. Any other model simply isn't going to survive. And economics doesn't care about the damage that is done to the diving industry and scuba diving in the process -- that is why economics is called the 'dismal science' -- and this is really a pretty cheery outcome compared to how dismal economics can get...

If you actually understood economics, you'd understand that your entire post was just pissing into the wind...

It all boils down to "Adapt or Die". The market will find a way to survive, but there could be a lot of casualties.

 

[cyklon_300]

Having lurked around the site for the past few months, I continue to be amazed at the absolute ignorance in economic principles of the LDS bashers on this site.

Let me see if I have this correct - a store owner who has retail rent, retail commercial insurance, employee wages, taxes and benefits, retail inventory carrying costs should sell his products for the lowest price available on the internet.

And you, Mr. internet only shopper, should be able to waste his employees' time and use his store to see-touch-feel the products before you order on-line. In essence he is the free showroom for the internet providers.

Now, you economic geniuses, help me with the math - if I have retail overhead, and sell at a margin that is too low to substain my overhead expenses, I guess I'll just lose money to stay open for your window shopping convenience.

Don't blame your LDS for trying -heaven forbid- "TO MAKE ENOUGH OF A PROFIT TO MAKE A DECENT LIVING". I guess it is ok for you to make a good wage/salary that allows you extra money to buy diving equipment and support your diving expenses, but it is not ok for the LDS owner or employees to be able to pay rent/food/utilities and maybe have a little bit extra to spend?

Those of you who indicate that you got "ripped off" by your LDS - Did you bother to ask if they offer a discount for buying a substantial amount of items, or an expensive item? If you didn't, then shame on you.

I know that there are some "slam em" LDS shops out there, but the vast majority that I have shopped at are owned by diving enthusiasts, who quite frankly, are sacrificing their optimum earning potential by continuing to operate a retail storefront.

Those of you on this site constantly preaching to newbies and others to abandon the LDS in favor of your "great internet buying experience" are doing a disservice to all divers. Oh, and I'm sure, because of your total disdain for the LDS, that you send your tank via UPS to your "amazing internet dive speciallist" for filling. Oh, what's that you say Mr. Genius - you fill your tanks at the LDS, geeze thanks for paying the bills.

When the LDS's are out of business, I'll make sure to come over to your house and use your $20,000 compressor. Oh, and make sure that you have a nitrox system as well. And don't expect me to pay for the maintenance, repair and eventual replacement cost. Oh, and please make sure you are a certified diving instructor and are willing to OW certify all the new divers in your area at a break even cost or even a small loss (by the way I want to see your $2,000,000 liability policy before you train me).

Next time you read about more companies closing down plants/offices to open in Mexico, India, Pakistan etc. realize that you - even in you infantile "I have to pay the cheapest amount for everything" mentality, are fueling offshoring.

And perhaps, your employer will come to you and tell you that you can either cut your wages/salary by 40% or lose your job, because "everyone has become so cheap that we can no longer make a profit".

Am I an LDS owner, no. Just someone schooled enough in economics to understand the principles behind retail economics, and smart enough to realize that WITHOUT THE LDS, DIVING IS A DYING SPORT (I'm sure that so many of our newbies were inspired to begin diving by surfing the internet, seeing a dive site, and taking their online OW certification course).

There is a vast difference between being a smart buyer, and being cheap.

what your point is...but, nevertheless, welcome to the board. We were one whiner short of a full load...