LDS Bashers

[ShakaZulu]

..........

If you actually understood economics, you'd understand that your entire post was just pissing into the wind...

Dang, I hate it when that happens.........

 

[JonAustin]

I, for one, welcome our Wal-Mart/Internet overlords. Or REI, or Academy, or Costco, or some future national chain of stores that specializes in scuba. I look forward to the day when I can get my equipment for a lower price because of volume discounts. I look forward to a national insurance policy that would require all sales associates to be appropriately trained in the equipment they are selling.

Afraid of your regs being manufactured in China? Apparently, few people are concerned about the safety of vehicles made in China, Mexico, or Eastern Europe. If you're still one of those people, don't BUY them! PAY the obscene mark-up for your regulator to be hand-made by Swedish elves who all have PHDs in underwater physiology.

As far as expert advice? Scubaboard seems to be an excellent repository of good information. For free. Without the pressure to buy from the particular line carried by the store.

Airfills? So long as there is a market, someone will sell airfills and rent tanks. Will I pay more? Probably. I wonder if the mark-up on my kit will ever equal what I might pay extra in air should ALL of the traditional dive shops close around here.

Equipment maintenance? Ever heard of a thing called UPS? Equipment manufacturers could probably make a bundle by establishing central maintenance facilities and undercutting their dealers. So, I'll pay less, AND have my regs serviced by a manufacturer's directly supervised employee? I lose how?

Training? Rentals? Please see "air fills."

Personally? I LIKE my dive shop because they're convenient , and I think they give good advice on the equipment they sell. I value that, so I pay their ridiculous mark-ups. That's probably why diveshops still exist when small jewelry, hardware, and other specialty stores are going the way of the dodo. But please don't begrudge people who don't want/need the handholding and want their equpment cheaper.

 

[matt_unique]

Basic Adam Smith stuff here....the market will force change. Online cannot compete for service or training. That is where they will need to make their money and change their business to make that portion of the scuba economy profitable for them.

The original poster is basically talking about farm subsidies for the LDS. That will never work sucessfully in a free market. Feel free to spend more of your hard earned money so you can feel good and righteous about supporting an out of date business model.

--Matt

 

[Irobot]

I DONT use internet , well only once ordered some black fins & got pink ones !!!!

I use & support My LDS's yes i use many ! I like the service , cup of coffee & general pleasantsess of the Staff

I like to go to the LDS , talk diving , Book courses & generally socialise . Fools on here harping on about the internet ! See what happens when you get the wrong thing ordered !Or you are disatisfied . Try go talk the the intert shops or complain .

People this is a sport which without the LDS & operators very few of us could afford , its about time the cheapskates in here realised that !!!!!

You wanna save a few $$ on a mask , then you do it !

 

[crlavoie]

Having lurked around the site for the past few months, I continue to be amazed at the absolute ignorance in economic principles of the LDS bashers on this site.

Let me see if I have this correct - a store owner who has retail rent, retail commercial insurance, employee wages, taxes and benefits, retail inventory carrying costs should sell his products for the lowest price available on the internet.

And you, Mr. internet only shopper, should be able to waste his employees' time and use his store to see-touch-feel the products before you order on-line. In essence he is the free showroom for the internet providers.

Now, you economic geniuses, help me with the math - if I have retail overhead, and sell at a margin that is too low to substain my overhead expenses, I guess I'll just lose money to stay open for your window shopping convenience.

Don't blame your LDS for trying -heaven forbid- "TO MAKE ENOUGH OF A PROFIT TO MAKE A DECENT LIVING". I guess it is ok for you to make a good wage/salary that allows you extra money to buy diving equipment and support your diving expenses, but it is not ok for the LDS owner or employees to be able to pay rent/food/utilities and maybe have a little bit extra to spend?

Those of you who indicate that you got "ripped off" by your LDS - Did you bother to ask if they offer a discount for buying a substantial amount of items, or an expensive item? If you didn't, then shame on you.

I know that there are some "slam em" LDS shops out there, but the vast majority that I have shopped at are owned by diving enthusiasts, who quite frankly, are sacrificing their optimum earning potential by continuing to operate a retail storefront.

Those of you on this site constantly preaching to newbies and others to abandon the LDS in favor of your "great internet buying experience" are doing a disservice to all divers. Oh, and I'm sure, because of your total disdain for the LDS, that you send your tank via UPS to your "amazing internet dive speciallist" for filling. Oh, what's that you say Mr. Genius - you fill your tanks at the LDS, geeze thanks for paying the bills.

When the LDS's are out of business, I'll make sure to come over to your house and use your $20,000 compressor. Oh, and make sure that you have a nitrox system as well. And don't expect me to pay for the maintenance, repair and eventual replacement cost. Oh, and please make sure you are a certified diving instructor and are willing to OW certify all the new divers in your area at a break even cost or even a small loss (by the way I want to see your $2,000,000 liability policy before you train me).

Next time you read about more companies closing down plants/offices to open in Mexico, India, Pakistan etc. realize that you - even in you infantile "I have to pay the cheapest amount for everything" mentality, are fueling offshoring.

And perhaps, your employer will come to you and tell you that you can either cut your wages/salary by 40% or lose your job, because "everyone has become so cheap that we can no longer make a profit".

Am I an LDS owner, no. Just someone schooled enough in economics to understand the principles behind retail economics, and smart enough to realize that WITHOUT THE LDS, DIVING IS A DYING SPORT (I'm sure that so many of our newbies were inspired to begin diving by surfing the internet, seeing a dive site, and taking their online OW certification course).

There is a vast difference between being a smart buyer, and being cheap.

OK "Mr. 1st semester Liberal Arts Student at East Podunk Community College". I'm going to go easy on you here as it is clear that you are woefully uneducated in basic economic principles. From here on out I will refrain from any further name calling even though you could not find it in yourself to do the same for the many thousands of us who have made on-line purchases to, gasp, save some money.

I'm not sure what "principles behind retail economics" you are referring to but, your copy of the manual was missing the part about market share, unit volume, cash flow, pull through revenue, cash conversion etc. These are fairly advanced concepts and I would advise that you start out with something more basic like "An inquiry into the Nature and Causes of The Wealth of Nations - Adam Smith, 1776". When you get through that, we can start getting you up to speed through the 1900's and the age of automation. In the mean time, it's safe to say that ALL of the above are the very lifeblood of a retail business and are vastly improved in the on-line world and contribute to a far more profitable business model than burying one's head in the sand and hoping that this "Internet Thingie" goes away. That's just from the perspective of the endangered species known as the LDS owner. Forget the natural laws that govern economic efficiency and market rationalization. Waaaayyyy too macro for this discussion but it's very similar to the theory of natural selection. You do know about Darwin, right?

Many, many folks have transformed there business and created very succesful hybrid models like Scuba Toys, Leisure Pro, Dive Tank... to name just a few. Are you, as a non-industry participant, going to bash the fforts of those with the fortitude and determination to carve out a new way of doing business? All so that they can be as mediocre as the next guy? Come on dude! Get off the pipe. This is America.

Now, when you get out of Micro 101, try to come back with a real theory where we can hold a rational conversation instead of the emotionally charged hyperbole from your previous post. Until then, at least attempt to keep your posts civil.

 

[PerroneFord]

Irobot, I don't know where you live, but apparently it is far away from reality. At least the reality of many people here. I have been in many dive shops and not once has anyone offered me so much as a cup of water. The service at one is poor enough for me to drive 5 miles across town to the other.

As for internet sales, I've had nothing but positive things to say about internet sales. No, not all internet sale places are awesome, some aren't even reputable. Word of mouth tends to lead people to the right places.

I also resent you calling me a cheapskate. Just because I choose to keep some hard earned cash in my pocket does not make me a cheapskate. I shop around for cars, I shop around for houses, I shop around for a pair of pants. Doesn't make me a cheapskate, makes me an informed buyer. Now my dad, he's a cheapskate. Anyone who would drive 8 miles to another state to save 9/10 of a cent on gas, is a cheapskate!

 

[cyklon_300]

I DONT use internet , well only once ordered some black fins & got pink ones !!!!

I use & support My LDS's yes i use many ! I like the service , cup of coffee & general pleasantsess of the Staff

I like to go to the LDS , talk diving , Book courses & generally socialise . Fools on here harping on about the internet ! See what happens when you get the wrong thing ordered !Or you are disatisfied . Try go talk the the intert shops or complain .

People this is a sport which without the LDS & operators very few of us could afford , its about time the cheapskates in here realised that !!!!!

You wanna save a few $$ on a mask , then you do it !

thoroughly compelling argument. You guys really make it hard to continue purchasing online...I feel so dirty and ashamed.

 

[rockjock3]

I have personally never suggested that LDSs should sell their items at a lost. But, when an LDS marks their items up by 150-300% to ensure they will make the profit they need on say 10 items yet they could mark their items up 30-80% and make their profit off selling 20-30 items and be more competitive with onlines stores and sell more items therefore make the same profit just selling more items, building a larger customer base and thefefore supporting their store.

But if you of wise economic learning think it is wise to sell merchandise at crazy markups so that you can make your rent/food/salaries/bills/etc all off of one or two sales then go for it. That kind of store is hurting because they are greedy.

You forgot to take into account the thousands of dollars that many store owners also make (in essence) when they sell group trips to their customers and get themselves a spot for free by selling 10 regular paying slots. There are other bennies to owning a dive shop than just making all your profit with a couple of sales.

 

[Irobot]

My point here is that people slate the LDS's , now dont get me wrong if I wanna buy say a set of regs , of course I go online to get a ballpark figure so as to get a good deal at the LDS.....But ....

My Point here is that the LDS bashers seem to want to totally slate Dive stores & centers which , if there were none !! There would simply BE no diving . For most dive centers equipement sales is part of their buisnes , which without , their buisness wouldnt survive !!!

So wouldnt it be wonderful all you LDS bashers that next time you arrive at your exotic destination with all your cheapskate gear you got on the internet you found to your horros there were NO Dive centers !!!!!= No Diving !!!!! , hey try going online to order a days diving !

& the reason prehaps you dont get coffee or are frindly is prehaps you go into a shop expect the same prices as internet is because you dont shop there !

If it wasnt for LDS / Dive Centers & resorts which all relay on equpiment sales there would be NO sports diving ! Thats the bottom line NOT the bottom price .

And another thing I know what I,ve written in this thread , so no need to copy & paste it if youd like to address what I,ve said !!!!!!!

Shame on you LDS bashers , you give the rest of us a bad Name !

 

[WaterDawg]

As far as expert advice? Scubaboard seems to be an excellent repository of good information.

WOW, thats a first.