Land of Free Speech

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The statute prohibits discrimination by places of public accommodation.

New York has not, based on my admittedly fast research (Westlaw is expensive), ever interpreted the term "creed". However, in 1993 the Minnesota Appeals Court examined several dictionaries in wide circulation and held that the term applied to religious beliefs only. The Minnesota case involved a claim by a municipality that a restaurant owner was discriminating based upon creed when he refused to deliver food to a hospital where abortions were performed, even though he would deliver to other hospitals. The Court rejected the claim when it held that creed applied to religious beliefs. The Court also balanced the owner's right of association against the government's interpretation of creed and held that construing creed to apply to any sincerely held belief would violate the owner's right to choose his associations.

Thus, discriminating based on creed would include, for example, prohibiting Muslims from visiting the mall. It might also include refusing to allow Jewish males to enter the mall because the owner's disapproved of their insistence upon wearing head covering.

The Minnesota Court's cogent reasoning is applicable here. It is important to balance the rights of property owners against the rights of business invitees who are allowed on the property for the purpose of conducting business. Interpreting creed in the manner espoused by Minnesota does this.

Cherry, I do not agree with anything that you said except that we have a great country. We do not, and never have had, majority rule. That's a democracy, also known as mob rule. We are a constitutional republic. Our government functions through elected representatives.

The property owner is a private entity. So long as the discrimination was not based upon a prohibited category as set forth in my prior posts, there is no violation of law. There is also no erosion of individual rights because the rights you speak of never existed in the first place.

Nor do they exist, I suspect, in Canada. I'm fairly certain that I would be asked to leave the Beaver Room at the Queen Elizabeth in Montreal (my favorite restaurant and hotel in Montreal) if I showed up at the height of the dinner hour wearing an obscene T-Shirt, a pair of cutoffs and sneakers.

There is no difference here, except that you symphatize with the attorney. I actually feel less sympathy because he made the first year law student's mistake of assuming that he has the right to do whatever he wants in derogation of others rights, in this case the property owner.

By the way, the only reason I think that this was a silly arrest is that it will generate unfavorable publicity for the mall. I would have let the guy roam around until he became disruptive.

In addition, remember that we only have his side of the story. Upon further reflection, I'm truly curious whether he did do something to bring himself to the attention of security, such as being disruptive, attempting to hand out leaflets, etc.... In such a case the mall has even more justification for booting him.
 
Arnaud once bubbled...
Isn't a political message on a t-shirt, no matter what the actual message is, considered a creed

I'm not a lawyer, but I would still that the answer is no...not typically.

Creed is typically used to refer to an entire belief system and is, in my experience, almost always meant to refer to one's religious beliefs.

If the individual in question had - without ostensibly bothering anyone - pulled out a prayer rug, faced Mecca, and had begun to pray and had been asked to leave by Security...there would probably be a case to be made for blatant discrimination on the basis of "creed".

On the other hand, "New York Yankees Suck Donkey Balls" and "Bush is an idiot" or "Peace in the Middle East" can hardly be referred to as established belief systems...
 
NEW and I must have been typing at the same time...didn't see his response prior to beginning mine.
 
Ontario Diver once bubbled...


What ever happened to "the right to free speech" and "I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." And it AIN"T an "anti-american attitude" to prefer peace over war.... most warriors do.

(and I really hate that song....)

Look at where that saying was derived. The First Amendment applies to the Federal Government. It also applies to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment. State constitutional cognates apply to the respective states.

Bear in mind that requiring malls to allow anyone to speak out as they choose interferes with the rights of the mall owners to conduct their business as they see fit. Certain anti discrimination restrictions may be appropriate. However, there is no basis, in history or law, for requiring property owners to allow anyone to say whatever they want on their property.
 
Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
The statute prohibits discrimination by places of public accommodation.

which includes
wholesale and retail stores and establishments dealing with goods or services of any kind
§292.9

New York has not, based on my admittedly fast research (Westlaw is expensive), ever interpreted the term "creed". However, in 1993 the Minnesota Appeals Court examined several dictionaries in wide circulation and held that the term applied to religious beliefs only.

Then, if same applies to NY, it's clear that he has no case.

The property owner is a private entity. So long as the discrimination was not based upon a prohibited category as set forth in my prior posts, there is no violation of law. There is also no erosion of individual rights because the rights you speak of never existed in the first place.
The argument I made was based on possible discrimination, not free speech.

Thanks for your explanations and research.
 
NE you are right in that the Beaver room is a private establishment with a dress code. It would not be considered a "public place" at all. However, the food court is a public place with no dress code. As to the rest well if the US isnt a democracy then why try and make other countries one or was I wrong when I heard your fearless leader talk about making the world "safe for democracy". Cause if a guy cant wear a "give peace a chance" t-shirt in a mall it aint very safe in the "homeland" (Gawd I hate that word sounds way to much like other words by Orwell or you know who.)
 
Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
Nor to they exist, I suspect, in Canada. I'm fairly certain that I would be asked to leave the Beaver Room at the Queen Elizabeth in Montreal (my favorite restaurant and hotel in Montreal) if I showed up at the height of the dinner hour wearing an obscene T-Shirt, a pair of cutoffs and sneakers.

With respect, in Canada it is different. First of all, any place of business normally not closed to the public (ie. doesn't have a guarded opening and requires open public access for business purposes) is considered "public" not private property and denial of access cannot be capricious. One more reason for the "Please wait to be seated" sign. :D (Quebec having its basis of law in the Napoleonic code is even more different!) BTW, I'm not saying one is right, wrong or better - just that they are different.

To be denied access to the Beaver Room (and it is a great place to dine) there must be a displayed set of rules (ie. "proper dress" or "over 19 only"). Since a male friend of mine showed up once after 7pm with a dress sweater instead of a tie........:)
 
pufferfish once bubbled...
So would DIR be a creed? Oops just hijacked my own thread :wink:

Whaddiya think? Every one of us who got sucked into responding to this stupid troll is violating BBS Rule #1 in a BIG way.

I'd like to expand upon my previously stated opinion. I previously stated that you were a troll. You are still a troll, a hijacking troll moreover...and this entire thread is a big Charlie Foxtrot.

The dancing banana farts in your general direction...

:banana:
 
Arnaud once bubbled...
Then, if same applies to NY, it's clear that he has no case.

The argument I made was based on possible discrimination, not free speech.

Thanks for your explanations and research.

Other Courts have ruled along similar lines. I didn't include them because they are merely cumulative.

I do believe that you are correct that the statute applies. However, I'm not intimately familiar with NY law. Besides, attorneys like to qualify their statements, at least in most cases. :)

The free speech section was actually directed to Cherry's post.

You're quite welcome. It's actually quite interesting. I haven't handled a civil rights case in years, although the one I've done went to the First Circuit, where we won on appeal and made new law regarding a military plaintiff's ability to sue for hazing.
 

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