Kihei (Maui) shore dives - help with dive flag

[KrisB]

Oooh, Kris.

Posting pics like that could get you a visit from the men in black (black neoprene)


:theyareontome:

Those pictures have already been forwarded to the DLNR with a complaint, through an officer that thought they were pretty outlandish as well.

It was nice that the vessels were clearly marked and the markings were visible from my location.

Hopefully something came of it... as I mentioned, one of the flags / buoys was being used by the PADI IE, which *necessarily* would have had some ascents near / at the buoy as part of the examination.

 

[Black_3000psi]

im almost sure the law states you must have the flag with you.it was brought to my attention after my shore dive to the y.o. now common sense should tell you to tow the float (with flag) in the event that something should go wrong. as a responsible diver it is good practice to always consider safety first(yea i admit it i used to take big risks for the sake of a dive stopped that stuff along time ago) As a Dive professional (DM) I suggest that you get a float attach a flag to the float then use a reel so that you can feed out line according to your depth. you said we that means someone else will be diving with you . how often divers get seperated ? happens all the time that flag is the easiest way to find your partner. hard to believe that there is an IDC instructor here telling you otherwise. im so sure that the advise he has given you is in keeping with PADI standards.amazing. its your life you can play craps with it all you like. it must be ok cause three dive instructors and a scuba board staff member all say its ok. hmmm i wonder what would be the legal liability of sb if something went wrong. I truly hope you reconsider towing the flag, not because its the law but because its a matter of safety so many things can go wrong and that float would be of use to many of them remember most diving accidents start out as something small then grow .please enjoy your trip.

 

[KrisB]

im almost sure the law states you must have the flag with you.it was brought to my attention after my shore dive to the y.o. now common sense should tell you to tow the float (with flag) in the event that something should go wrong. as a responsible diver it is good practice to always consider safety first(yea i admit it i used to take big risks for the sake of a dive stopped that stuff along time ago) As a Dive professional (DM) I suggest that you get a float attach a flag to the float then use a reel so that you can feed out line according to your depth. you said we that means someone else will be diving with you . how often divers get seperated ? happens all the time that flag is the easiest way to find your partner. hard to believe that there is an IDC instructor here telling you otherwise. im so sure that the advise he has given you is in keeping with PADI standards.amazing. its your life you can play craps with it all you like. it must be ok cause three dive instructors and a scuba board staff member all say its ok. hmmm i wonder what would be the legal liability of sb if something went wrong. I truly hope you reconsider towing the flag, not because its the law but because its a matter of safety so many things can go wrong and that float would be of use to many of them remember most diving accidents start out as something small then grow .please enjoy your trip.

I LINKED to the DLNR/DOBOR copy of the HRS quoted where it clearly states that there is "no subsurface distance restrictions". This means that you do not have to be with your flag. But you must surface within 100' (or 50' if in a navigable stream).

If you are not within 10-15' of the surface, there is no safety risk from not having your flag.

Besides... what benefit is the flag if the buddy that wants to find the other "lost" one is the one with the flag?

PADI standards only apply during training events. What divers do on their own should fall under the Standard Safe Diving Practices, which includes obeying local laws and is EXACTLY what I'm advocating here.

If buddy separation "happens all the time" for you, I'd revisit either a) your diving practices or b) your choice of buddies. Or perhaps both.
As for local practices on Maui, towing the flag is an exception. Shaka Doug does it always, as do the instructors at the Maui Prince (because their path crosses paths with the Kai Kanani as she loads/unloads from shore). And that's pretty much it. The only other people I've seen drag a flag the entire dive here have been doing a drift dive.

So, regardless of what you read here, you'll find that local practice, which is within the bounds of the law, is exactly what's being advocated -- hence absolving any legal liability on recommendations posted here.

Oddly enough -- the only issues I've heard of with regards to encounters with vessels in these waters have been when there IS a flag immediately above the divers. The boaters don't know what it means, and approach to investigate... and the jetskiers use them as slalom buoys.

 

[Black_3000psi]

please do show me where it says padi standards only apply during training events. as a dive professionals we have a moral obligation to promote safe diving habits. from your above post I can see you dont feel that way. and this is what you teach divemasters ? the dive flag is a signal its saying hey look out there are divers near this flag.if you dont have that flag with you then what good is it should there be a need to surface? do i need to spell out every reason and posible situation that might cause a diver to surface unexpectedly? man you are a credit to the dive community . infact I think that your dive practices are at such a high standard that you should be awarded some sort of recognition for what you bring to the sport so ill just send all this to PADI so they can acknowledge you and all your great wisdom and dive practices. i am thru with this thread

btw here is the rest of the dive flag law pay attention.

(h) The diver's flag shall be displayed only when free diving or SCUBA diving is in progress, and its display in a water area when no diving is in progress in that area shall constitute a violation of these rules.

now how far away from the flag do you think would constitute no longer in the dive area?

 

[KrisB]

please do show me where it says padi standards only apply during training events.

When they address when a PADI Member must follow standards is here:

1. Abide by the listed requirements and intent of all PADI Standards and procedures as published in the PADI Instructor Manual, Training Bulletins and other updates while conducting PADI courses and programs.

Note the stipulation: "while conducting PADI courses and programs."

as a dive professionals we have a moral obligation to promote safe diving habits. from your above post I can see you dont feel that way. and this is what you teach divemasters ?

I'm saying that the dive flag being towed above/behind you does not necessarily increase safety like one would think it should. In fact, it can often decrease safety as BOATERS don't know what it means, and the law is not enforced from their side (i.e. to stay away from the flags).

the dive flag is a signal its saying hey look out there are divers near this flag.

You're right... of course the average boater doesn't know this. I'd be surprised if you could find a non-diving boat operator (commercially-licensed captains don't count) that knows what the flag means.

if you dont have that flag with you then what good is it should there be a need to surface? do i need to spell out every reason and posible situation that might cause a diver to surface unexpectedly?

And that is a decision you have to make. Having the flag may make it more likely for a boat to be directly overhead, though. The smart diver can HEAR most boats and avoid them that way.

btw here is the rest of the dive flag law pay attention.

(h) The diver's flag shall be displayed only when free diving or SCUBA diving is in progress, and its display in a water area when no diving is in progress in that area shall constitute a violation of these rules.

now how far away from the flag do you think would constitute no longer in the dive area?

By measure of the law already discussed, you are within the "area" when your dive plan reasonably includes surfacing within 100' of the flag. Obviously, if it's not practical to return to that area by the time you're ready to surface, you're out of the area.

 

[Black_3000psi]

how many people are on a dive are going to stay within a 100 feet of that flag. there for telling someone to tie up their flag do the dive then return to it does not strike me as a safe diving practice.
if encouraging people to tow that float for their own safety is considered argumentitive then i am guilty as charged. if thats what you consider not having something constructive to contribute then i am guilty I will always be guilty of it every time the issue comes up. as divers its very important that we do not become too over confident with our skills. sometimes we forget the dangers of our sport mainly because most of us feel at home there.keep in mind that our sport is far less forgiving for bad choices. what i say here i dont say for the laws sake i say it because i "care" about other peoples safety. there are many reasons why a diver might have to surface that dive flag is supposed to put the odds in your favor that you dont get run down . nobody likes towing a float. personally i hate towing them. these people are coming here to have a good time how sad it would be should something happen that could have easily been avoided with such a simple thing as a float. so for the sake of my own peace of mind i say to them use the float if you dont want to tow it then maybe attach a weight to it while your exploring an area drop it when your ready to move on grab your weight tow the float. that way its always nearby.
now in your above post you quote me then go on to say


Quote:
if you dont have that flag with you then what good is it should there be a need to surface? do i need to spell out every reason and posible situation that might cause a diver to surface unexpectedly?

then you go on to say:

And that is a decision you have to make. Having the flag may make it more likely for a boat to be directly overhead, though. The smart diver can HEAR most boats and avoid them that way.

please explain to me why having the float would make it more likely to attract a boat above you where is the logic in that statement ? and the last time i checked its pretty much imposible to tell where the boat is until its right above you.

as for the people who are coming here to dive i will relate to you a story. i can only hope that you take heed: back in 02 right here in hawaii I came out of retirement to box one more time to show the fighters i train that what I teach them is sound boxing skills. I won the fight (1st round K.O.) after the fight i realized that i was finally in the best shape of my life and decided to make one last run at getting a shot so i signed for another fight. i was at 24 hour fitness where i did most of my cardio training. as i walked in i could see a good basketball game going on. after staring at the game for a minute or two one of the staff walked over to me and said to me point blank "dont even think about it . your ten days from the fight anything could happen out there on the court . just go down to the cardio room and do your thing" but im thinking man i been shootin hoops all my life what could happen ? just one game of full court and that would cover my cardio for the day. it was about five minutes into the game when i went up to block a shot leg got traped against the shooters and my acl snapped. both the interior(center) and the lateral. just like that my little come back was over.
my point is this : when you know someone is giving you good advise take it. not because what they are telling you will happen but because they are helping you to avoid making a bad choice. no matter the outcome. you might come here dive without towing the float and then do it again over and over else where then one day you may end a dive wishing you had had that float cause it cost someone their leg or worse. what price are you whiling to pay for your choice?

 

[KrisB]

how many people are on a dive are going to stay within a 100 feet of that flag.

Almost none, I'd imagine.

there for telling someone to tie up their flag do the dive then return to it does not strike me as a safe diving practice.

Then you really have no idea of what generally accepted safe diving practices around Maui are, then. And that, I might add, is exactly what the OP was asking about.

please explain to me why having the float would make it more likely to attract a boat above you where is the logic in that statement ?

As I explained in previous posts, a flag moving around away from shore is more likely to attract the casual boater, thinking it's adrift, or the jetskier who wants a slalom buoy than it is keep people away from the divers.

... the simple fact is that MOST OCEAN USERS HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A DIVE FLAG MEANS.

and the last time i checked its pretty much imposible to tell where the boat is until its right above you.

You might not be able to tell where it is, but you can tell how close it is to you, based on frequencies heard and volume.

 

[Black_3000psi]

the only thing that confounds my mind is why you would be so adiment on encouraging someone to not tow the float. so great on maui dont use a float so you can get run over by a boat that knows what one is but didnt see one cause it want there.

 

[KrisB]

I'm not saying don't tow it.

I am saying not to necessarily expect a greater safety margin from having it above you versus having it at your ascent point.

And that the law doesn't require it to be towed.

 

[Black_3000psi]

you made a valid point concerning dive flag awareness. to that i can only offer a solution.

Florida Skin Diver
this is what they did in florida. I would like to think that someone wont have to die before this is attempted,

as my ol trainer used to say "knowing a thing gives you the right to talk about it, but doing a thing now thats a horse of a different color."
which basically ment ok you know the problem you know the solution.

now for the tricky part how do you force the state to require boat owners to do what car owners have to exams and opertors exam and proof of insurence.?

in theory there is a way . a boat is a motored vihecle just because it operated on water does not change that fact. so as a car owner curent state laws are constitutionally invalid. why? its called "equal protection of the law"
in a nutshell it states
"no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws" by forcing car owners to have a certain level of knowledge of laws yet gives boat owners a pass. and because it is a federal matter the state has no jurisdiction over the matter.any one person can file a "writ of habeas corpus" seeking relief, though most times its done as a class action. at the same time you file for a temperary injunction keeping the state from registering any boats untill the court decides the matter .which undoubtedly would force the state to move faster to address the issue itself.

that would be how it would work, again in theory.