Kelvin Grove Officially Off Limits

[sunkmail]

Urinate around parking?! Total nudity at the cars - what a heck??!!

Have never ever seen that - people change dive suites, but I never seen any nude diver over there...
And moreover I've never seen any diver who was urinating somewhere outside of the public washroom.

We have to punish them - otherwise BC will revert to the canton Geneva in Switzerland, where I've lived for 4 years.
Nice place - water and mountains around, but there is only 1/4 of shoreline is publicly accessible and the rest of it historically belongs to the "grand bourgeois". Well, Switzerland is definitely a country where richmans rules, but people are fighting for their rights over there. Another interesting resource is here Les bords des lacs, un bien public? — Radio Suisse Romande

And it looks like they have a great success...

Ditto!

Who gets naked when they dive? Since pretty much everyone wears drysuits, what would be the reason to get naked? Even if they are diving wet, there is no excuse - not that it bothers me, but given the choice, I'd rather not have a bunch of naked people around my car.

The closest I've EVER seen a diver get is boxers, and really, they're shorts. Maybe tighty-whities would offend some people, but they even allowed boxers on M*A*S*H - when was that filmed? Are we that much more uptight now?

The urinating around the parking lot could easily have been non-divers that didn't want to walk to the washrooms. Wouldn't a simple don't get naked and/or urinate in public by-law, not mentioning divers, be suffecient? Wait ... Aren't those things already illegal, therefore not needing more laws????




As an aside, the only people I have ever seen get naked at a beach (and I'm not talking wreck beach) were little kids, stripped by their parents, or (once) a family of tourists from Europe (judging from the language being used) that went to the change area at Whytecliff, but didn't bother to close the doors, or even move away from the doorway - I guess they wanted to stay in the sun.

 

[James Bond boat entry]

Hola Paddledive,

I think you are right concerning the Offence Act, my mistake for not reading the words "Summary Conviction"

Now for something else interesting, the fine for scuba diving appear to be $100.00

Give this a read -> http://lionsbay.synaxisits.com/Bylaw415BylawNoticeEnforcement.pdf

The document was located on this webpate -> http://www.lionsbay.ca/page/page/525604.htm

Then look at section 260 (5) then try to figure out what is going on, I am confused

Community Charter:

Enforcement powers

260 (1) A council may make bylaws for the purposes of enforcing the bylaws of the municipality.

(2) Subject to subsection (5), without limiting the available remedies, the authority of a municipality to deal with a contravention of a bylaw includes the following:

(a) prosecution of the offence in accordance with the Offence Act;

(b) proceeding under Division 3 [Ticketing for Bylaw Offences] of this Part;

(b.1) subject to the regulations under the Local Government Bylaw Notice Enforcement Act, proceeding by bylaw notice under that Act;

(c) court action under Division 4 [Enforcement by Civil Proceedings] of this Part.

(3) If a bylaw establishes a regulation or requirement to be observed in a municipality, a person who contravenes the regulation or requirement commits an offence that is punishable in the same manner as if the bylaw had expressly forbidden persons from doing or refraining from doing the act.

(4) Section 12 (1) [authority to establish variations] does not apply in relation to bylaws imposing fines and other penalties under this Part.

(5) If a matter is prescribed for the purpose of section 4 (2) of the Local Government Bylaw Notice Enforcement Act, a council that adopts or has adopted a bylaw in relation to the matter may only enforce the bylaw by bylaw notice under that Act.

So, is the language in section 14.1 of the Lions Bay Park bylaw No. 414 2009 now a moot point, or does it go in effect if you don't pay the fine.

 

[paddledive]

Hey 007,

Hmm, well, first and foremost, I'm not a lawyer so please be careful taking legal advice from me. I do, by the nature of my work, need to read a lot of law but I don't get the big bucks. I have asked for some help from a lawyer with this little fiasco in Lions Bay.

But this is what I understand of things. If scuba diving was actually going to be a ticketed offence, $100 fine sounds a lot more in line with other bylaw tickets than $2000. Now, the fact that you must almost always need water, thus the ocean to scuba dive, should make it all a moot point. However, they could still write you an "illegal scuba diving" ticket according to their current bylaws. It would then be up to the bylaw ticket recipient to dispute the ticket.

Section 269 of the Community Charter states that a municipality must arrange for a Provincial Court date should anyone who has been issued a bylaw ticket wish to dispute it (I know this Section has been ignored by Lions Bay in the past). Once in Court, it is up to the municipality to prove their case. The recipient is not obligated to get up on the stand to testify. My belief is that any Judge that hears these bylaws will likely blow his top in court and put Lions Bay in their place....This could be almost entertaining to watch if it ever gets that far.

 

[James Bond boat entry]

Cool, maybe what I'll do is call the Lions Bay Village bylaw enforcement officer and ask what is the fine... then if it is $100.00, roll the dice and see if some entertainment can be had.

If you have a lawyer to consult then this will be ideal, the last time I hired a lawyer it cost $250.00 per hour for the senior guy and $150.00 for the associate (she was better looking).

No response yet from Transport Canada...

 

[paddledive]

James,
I might be dreaming, but I'm going to try to find lawyer that's willing to do the work on retainer (No cost until the matter has been won. They then take a percentage of whatever settlement. They get nothing if they loose the case).

I think all of us would much prefer to have this mess straightened out without involving the courts, lawyers and associated headaches (no matter how good lookin' they are). But if Lions Bay digs in their heels, then there might not be any alternative.
The easiest and least expensive way to do this would be to dispute an issued bylaw ticket.

My opinion is that none of the Lions Bay bylaws that we have discussed so far would hold an ounce of water in court. Including the non-resident scuba-diving, non-resident parking, no motorized boats off shore etc...

Lions Bay has gone quiet with me too in their response to my email(s). I wonder if they are starting to realize the size of can of worms they have opened.

 

[KrisB]

James,
I might be dreaming, but I'm going to try to find lawyer that's willing to do the work on retainer (No cost until the matter has been won. They then take a percentage of whatever settlement. They get nothing if they loose the case).

I think all of us would much prefer to have this mess straightened out without involving the courts, lawyers and associated headaches (no matter how good lookin' they are). But if Lions Bay digs in their heels, then there might not be any alternative.
The easiest and least expensive way to do this would be to dispute an issued bylaw ticket.

My opinion is that none of the Lions Bay bylaws that we have discussed so far would hold an ounce of water in court. Including the non-resident scuba-diving, non-resident parking, no motorized boats off shore etc...

Lions Bay has gone quiet with me too in their response to my email(s). I wonder if they are starting to realize the size of can of worms they have opened.

paddledive -- how is there any "settlement" available from winning a bylaw enforcement case? You might have more success finding some fresh UBC Law School grad work on this, if you can't find a lawyering diver that feels strongly enough about this to work pro bono.

Just a thought.

 

[James Bond boat entry]

Hey Paddle,

Your enthusiasm is refreshing, but you are only asking the Supreme Court of BC to set aside the bylaw or portions therein and be awarded costs; Someone could represent themselves.

Hiring a lawyer will cost some money and even it you are awarded costs, it won't be 100% more likely 50-60%.

http://www.bclaws.ca/Recon/document...0 Supreme Court Rules/221_90_07.xml#AppendixB

Another good strategy is to send other levels of Government after the village of fools, Transport Canada is one, Ministry of Agriculture and Lands, BC Human Rights Tribunal ect.

 

[Sintax604]

I've been getting the silent treatment as well since my last email to councilor Peach. It's possible that now that they are aware of the impending silt-storm they will wait to discuss the issue together at the next council meeting (Sept. 8th).

At this point, I think the best course of action would be to just sit on it and wait to see what happens. We can certainly try and get other levels of government and the media on board but I don't think we can expect anything from Lions Bay until they get a chance to discuss.

 

[mustang_5l]

Good work Scott. I'm sure this issue won't be resolved easily but we should at least explore all the avenues available.

I don't know about the parking but I really wonder if they have the power to allow residents to do one activity (dive) but deny non residents the same activity. Particularily when their park is only "passed through" and the activity actually occurs beyond the foreshore (if they even control that)". I'm no lawyer but I think this is the biggest weakness in their bylaw. Enforcement powers regarding their complaints (nudity/urination etc...) are already covered by other sections of the bylaw anyways.

Dale... Feel like going for a dive there? I know a few cops that are itching to try it out!
John

 

[DaleC]

Dale... Feel like going for a dive there? I know a few cops that are itching to try it out!
John

Hi John,
Funny, I was thinking about a certain RCMP dive team diver recently

I am seriously thinking about snorkeling there when I get back just to try and get a ticket. Does anyone know when the next city council meeting is btw?