It's a good day for gas blending

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ScoobaChef

Contributor
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Location
Sydney
# of dives
1000 - 2499
Just finished my first practical exam for my gas blending course. I had to mix 6 bottles of 50%, 3 with O2 and air and 3 with O2 and 32% in 30 minutes.

Nailed every single one with less than .5% variance!

Feeling pretty happy right now. Next week we do trimix.
 
Starting from empty?

If so and assuming you didn't have six blending whips then your oxygen flow rates must have been pretty high - scarily high in fact.
 
Maybe they were really small bottles. I would be more interested in knowing what blending software gave the numbers for partial pressure blending. Most use ideal gas laws while a few accommodate real gas behavior. And I also don't think 30 minutes is enough time for gasses to mix thoroughly and get a good analysis.

Naturally if the course involved continuous stick blending, then that would make everything a lot easier in 30 minutes including O2 flow rates and instant analysis. But that wouldn't give me great confidence in someone's gas blending prowess.
 
Yeah, they were 5l deco cylinders filled in a water bath and I had multiple fill whips. I used DSAT gas blender, V-planner and did the calculations by hand for comparison purposes. I agree 30 minutes isn't long enough to be sure of a good mix, but I was there a few hours later when they were being picked up and the analyses were still pretty much spot on.
Maybe they were really small bottles. I would be more interested in knowing what blending software gave the numbers for partial pressure blending. Most use ideal gas laws while a few accommodate real gas behavior. And I also don't think 30 minutes is enough time for gasses to mix thoroughly and get a good analysis.Naturally if the course involved continuous stick blending, then that would make everything a lot easier in 30 minutes including O2 flow rates and instant analysis. But that wouldn't give me great confidence in someone's gas blending prowess.
 
I have repeatedly heard about having to wait for mixing of gasses to get a good reading. I have never had the problem, know anyone that can show me the problem, or has had the problem them selves. Just what mixing is involved in a single tank. the dip tube is a nozzle for the injected gas and can do nothing but stir the mix the entire fill time. I wish some one could explain to my dumb brain how this can happen. With doubles i understand the problem theory but not singles. I can pp fill check gas and then check it again in a week and it is off no more than a couple of decimal points. Those points i attribute to gass cooling and coefficient of espansion's The worse part of PP blending is putting in the O2. You have tolet it cool to determine the PSI you are going to dilute with air.

I can put 750 psi in an tank in a couple of minutes time and check it again in ten minutes and it drops up to 100 psi. In my opinion the gass is not mixing it is cooling and off setting the final mix. If yo have over night to do it then do the O2 part of the PP blending at night and top off the next morning after rechecking the O2 psi int he tank.


Maybe they were really small bottles. I would be more interested in knowing what blending software gave the numbers for partial pressure blending. Most use ideal gas laws while a few accommodate real gas behavior. And I also don't think 30 minutes is enough time for gasses to mix thoroughly and get a good analysis.

Naturally if the course involved continuous stick blending, then that would make everything a lot easier in 30 minutes including O2 flow rates and instant analysis. But that wouldn't give me great confidence in someone's gas blending prowess.


---------- Post added August 19th, 2015 at 04:41 PM ----------

trimix is fun.

Just finished my first practical exam for my gas blending course. I had to mix 6 bottles of 50%, 3 with O2 and air and 3 with O2 and 32% in 30 minutes.

Nailed every single one with less than .5% variance!

Feeling pretty happy right now. Next week we do trimix.
 
Just finished my first practical exam for my gas blending course. I had to mix 6 bottles of 50%, 3 with O2 and air and 3 with O2 and 32% in 30 minutes.

Nailed every single one with less than .5% variance!

Feeling pretty happy right now. Next week we do trimix.

(Remote Expedition Partial Pressure Gas Blending in the field using Metric is a lot more intuitive as well. . .)

Starting from an empty tank or set of O2 clean tanks (5.5L or AL40 deco cylinder; and 11L or AL80 twinset backgas Cylinders for example):

Nitrox 50 (add 37% O2):
For every 100 bar of Eanx50 deco mix, you need 37 bar of pure O2 and top off the remainder with [hyper-filtered clean] Air;

Nitrox 32 (add 14% O2):
For every 100 bar of Eanx32 mix, you need 14 bar of pure O2 and top off the remainder with Air;

20/20 Trimix (add 4% O2 & 20% Helium):
For every 100 bar of 20/20 Trimix, you need 4 bar of pure O2, 20 bar of He and top off remainder with Air;

25/25 Triox (add 12% O2 & 25% Helium):
For every 100 bar of 25/25 Triox, you need 12 bar of pure O2, 25 bar of He and top off remainder with Air;

30/30 Triox (add 19% O2 & 30% Helium):
For every 100 bar of 30/30 Triox, you need 19 bar of pure O2, 30 bar of He and top off remainder with Air;

21/35 Trimix (add 9% O2 & 35% Helium):
For every 100 bar of 21/35 Trimix, you need 9 bar of pure O2, 35 bar of He and top off remainder with Air;

18/45 Trimix (add 8% O2 & 45% Helium):
For every 100 bar of 18/45 Trimix, you need 8 bar of pure O2, 45 bar of He and top off remainder with Air;

15/55 Trimix (add 7% O2 & 55% Helium):
For every 100 bar of 15/55 Trimix, you need 7 bar of pure O2, 55 bar of He and top off remainder with Air;

12/60 Trimix (add 5% O2 & 60% Helium):
For every 100 bar of 12/60 Trimix, you need 5 bar of pure O2, 60 bar of He and top off remainder with Air;

10/70 Trimix (add 4.5% O2 & 70% Helium):
For every 100 bar of 10/70 Trimix, you need 4.5 bar of pure O2, 70 bar of He and top off remainder with Air.

Using a 11L (AL80) cylinder, or set of twin 11L doubles (double AL80's) for a total of 22L, a full tank or set of tanks is 200 bar:
-->Therefore, all you need is 2 times the amount in bar for O2 (& He for Trimix) from above recipes for a particular mixture.

Example)
21/35 Trimix requires blending 9% Oxygen and and 35% Helium; Therefore a full 11L (Al80) cylinder(s) at 200 bar total pressure needs 18 bar of O2 (2 times 9 bar equals 18 bar), and 70 bar of Helium (2 times 35 bar equals 70 bar); and top off remainder to 200 bar with [hyper-filtered clean] Air.
 
The speed of filling issue is not one of accuracy but one of fire safety.

Putting oxygen through cylinder valves generates heat, the third part of the fire triangle. Cooling the cylinder in a water bath does not control the heat generated in the valve body as oxygen flows through the restriction of the HP orifice.

I would question the wisdom of any blending course that has oxygen being put into cylinders "against the clock".
 
I would question the wisdom of any blending course that has oxygen being put into cylinders "against the clock".
Let's nip that one before it gets out of hand. I was not being timed for score or encouraged to go at any excessive speed. I was just stating how long it took me to do the fills.If anything, the burden is on me for choosing the flow rate I was comfortable with. Which incidentally is still way slower than some of the fills I have seen in other shops.I could tell you what it's like to see a 3l hot filled from 0-200bar in about a minute, but I was too busy running out the door to see.
 
A long time ago I was a the LDS and he was just getting into nitrox filling. he was set up for pp and continuous. the question came up when he thought that he was leaking O2 because the tank was dropping psi after putting in the O2. Then he said that all the tanks he pp filled had that problem and when continuous filling the problem all but went away. Then he added that his computed mix always came up short. and changed by morning when he rechecked them. (He suspected a mixing/stirring issue) He tried using a tank tumbler to mix the tank. I asked to do a fill and we went to it. we filled an empty tank for 40% we put in 25% O2 and before topping off I stopped him and we went to lunch. Now he put in the O2 at 50-60 psi per minute. 750 psi in the tank and after lunch we came back and found it had 680 in it. He then saw why the mix was always short from his target. 680 to 750 is almost a 10% o2 content error. After that he had no more problems. After that the discussion came up about using banked mix. There is no problem ever using banked mix all the gasses are the same temp and roughly the same expansion.
 
I have repeatedly heard about having to wait for mixing of gasses to get a good reading. I have never had the problem, know anyone that can show me the problem, or has had the problem them selves. Just what mixing is involved in a single tank. the dip tube is a nozzle for the injected gas and can do nothing but stir the mix the entire fill time. I wish some one could explain to my dumb brain how this can happen .

Try this: Take 2 tanks and do identical partial pressure trimix blends in each. But do one with the tank standing vertically and the other lying down. Then immediately take a reading from each. No way they will be the same. When I blend my large storage bottles that I can't lay down, it takes a long time before the reading stabilizes at each step. It has a lot to do with entropy. And I use a digital infrared temp gauge to make certain that temp change doesn't enter the equation.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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