Is UTD still a "fringe" organization?

[ginti]

20/85 is still used in classes. In my experience with GUE classes involving deco (C2, T1, CCR1, CCR Cave), time was spent discussing the current state of deco research and how different GF values can be adjusted to fit the dive or the individual. InDepth has also run articles that address the current understanding of deco theory without inserting a defense of the current standard GF. I would expect that standard GF low to increase sometime soon, but that's speculation on my part. It's used in class because the backup method of ratio deco that's taught works ok with it. But I've never left a class feeling like I didn't understand how to adjust values for my own needs or that I couldn't do that.

I had the same experience

To the best of my knowledge GUE still maintains a 20/85 GF which, though not dangerous, may not be the best reflection of what we understand to be the most effective decompression.

See above

They do not recognize any distinction between recreational and technical so your performance requirements in their Open Water course are similar to Intro to Tech. You will also study decompression models in their Open Water course while the rest of the world will not burden you with it until you reach Tech.

While a mainstream recreational diving course is about students doing skills on their knees and then attempting the same skills in neutral buoyancy, UTD Open Water course will have students learning buoyancy and advanced propulsion without any diving gear on them while breathing from the long hose.

My perception is that decompression models are not necessary for OW divers, and to teach them too early is an overkill. Don't you see the same issue? How do you think newly certified OW UTD divers feel about knowing all that stuff even if they actually do not use it? I am not attacking UTD here, I am genuinely curious

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

My perception is that decompression models are not necessary for OW divers, and to teach them too early is an overkill. Don't you see the same issue? How do you think newly certified OW UTD divers feel about knowing all that stuff even if they actually do not use it? I am not attacking UTD here, I am genuinely curious

Well UTD Open Water diver is not using a dive computer. They are trained to generate ascents using ratios. If you are planning the dive using ratios, then you need some basic understanding of how decompression models are interpreting what is happening inside the body, to generate the stops. That is the motivation of introducing Open Water to some basic decompression models.

 

[ginti]

Well UTD Open Water diver is not using a dive computer. They are trained to generate ascents using ratios. If you are planning the dive using ratios, then you need some basic understanding of how decompression models are interpreting what is happening inside the body, to generate the stops. That is the motivation of introducing Open Water to some basic decompression models.

Thanks for your answer

Frankly speaking, I can see an alternative approach: just explaining the principles without going into the detailed explanation of the models, give some safety factors and providing the ratios. Clearly, one could give extra material to the students, in case they want to study much more. I would do it because I think that most divers are not interested in that level of knowledge.

[EDIT: this is why I am interested in understanding how fresh UTD OW divers feel about the course, if you have any info]

But I can see your point.

Out of curiosity, which models do they teach in the OW course?

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Thanks for your answer

Frankly speaking, I can see an alternative approach: just explaining the principles without going into the detailed explanation of the models, give some safety factors and providing the ratios. Clearly, one could give extra material to the students, in case they want to study much more. I would do it because I think that most divers are not interested in that level of knowledge.

[EDIT: this is why I am interested in understanding how fresh UTD OW divers feel about the course, if you have any info]

But I can see your point.

Out of curiosity, which models do they teach in the OW course?

Their Open Water course has a chapter called "Decompression Theory and the UTD Strategy." This chapter will go over history of decompression models so you will study all of them. Haldanean, Neo-Haldanean, Dissolved Gas, Bubble mechanics, Bruce Weinke and I believe they also go over Spisni study. After that it goes into how to use this to generate an recreational dive profile.

There is a lot more visual / slides than text so it is really not overwhelming in terms of reading volume. It gives you a pretty solid understanding of what you need to know.

 

[MichaelMc]

That’s fair, certainly less work for subsequent dive(s). Only works here when the weather is very cold, otherwise people roast in their drysuits, can’t remember that last time I saw a wetsuit/SM combo locally.

I don't leave my harness on between dives (shore or big boat). All I'm saying is that the sidemount diver can be further along before they commit to adding 40+ pounds to their back. And they can finish up chatting, eating or moving around the boat that way.

 

[Wibble]

All you have to do is watch divers in a mixed group of back-mount and side-mount getting ready for a dive to see that the point of side-mount is not simplicity, and that contrast continues underwater (switching regs to keep gas balance, readjusting Al tank position as buoyancy changes, etc). The primary point of side-mount is to get you where back-mount cannot underwater (low overhead restrictions). Secondary points may include being unable to dive back-mount comfortably, wanting redundancy travelling to places where all you can do is rent Al80s, preferring the trim/balance of side-mount, etc. Simplicity, not so much.

Obviously we've had different experiences. All the time I've dived with sidemounters when on backmount, they're hardly a bother at all. They tend not to use the benches to kit up as it's throwing the harness over the head, belting up, and clipping on the cylinders is easier done standing up. In the water they look rock stable and in far better trim than a lot of backmounters.

Sidemount's definitely a better way of diving. Streamlined, check. Redundancy, check. Balanced, check. Flexible, check. Not to mention handling single cylinders is easier to carry and manhandle especially if you've bone/joint pain or carrying them over rough terrain.

My favorite video for restowing, with a mostly one-handed method. It also helps to have gripper tabs on the hose bands to make lifting the band easier. And the tabs rotated to where you will need them.
Though restowing in backmount is vastly simpler. So simple as to barely warrant mentioning as a task.

There is definitely more faff involved with sidemount. I've learned to take a knee while kitting or dekitting so the tank I'm unclipping can rest on the thigh instead of my having to hold it and clip it.

Looking up by fully arching the back was a joy for me to discover. There are often fish up there.

Restowing a longhose in full winter kit is trivial. Put the hose round your neck and breathe from it. Gather together the 'loop', unhook the cylinder from the RH bottom clip and swing forwards; then stuff the hose in with both hands, one to lift the bands (I use bungee, but it doesn't matter), the other to stuff it in place. Tidy up then swing the cylinder back and clip off.

It's exactly the same procedure as re-stowing a stage cylinder hose.

 

[p_kos]

Obviously we've had different experiences. All the time I've dived with sidemounters when on backmount, they're hardly a bother at all. They tend not to use the benches to kit up as it's throwing the harness over the head, belting up, and clipping on the cylinders is easier done standing up. In the water they look rock stable and in far better trim than a lot of backmounters.

Sidemount's definitely a better way of diving. Streamlined, check. Redundancy, check. Balanced, check. Flexible, check. Not to mention handling single cylinders is easier to carry and manhandle especially if you've bone/joint pain or carrying them over rough terrain.




Restowing a longhose in full winter kit is trivial. Put the hose round your neck and breathe from it. Gather together the 'loop', unhook the cylinder from the RH bottom clip and swing forwards; then stuff the hose in with both hands, one to lift the bands (I use bungee, but it doesn't matter), the other to stuff it in place. Tidy up then swing the cylinder back and clip off.

It's exactly the same procedure as re-stowing a stage cylinder hose.

I wouldn’t say “definitely a better way of diving” about any system in all scenarios, side-mount is better for some environments and back-mount is better for others. They’re both just tools and one tool isn’t always better. Deep cold water diving where you need big steel tanks and multiple stage/deco tanks? Back-mount is a better use of space and cleaner. Of course one could argue this is better served by CCR as is the trend these days. Still, for deeper tech diving on OC back-mount offers greater/better gas carrying capabilities, and I consider that a fact rather than opinion.

 

[Wibble]

I wouldn’t say “definitely a better way of diving” about any system in all scenarios, side-mount is better for some environments and back-mount is better for others. They’re both just tools and one tool isn’t always better. Deep cold water diving where you need big steel tanks and multiple stage/deco tanks? Back-mount is a better use of space and cleaner. Of course one could argue this is better served by CCR as is the trend these days. Still, for deeper tech diving on OC back-mount offers greater/better gas carrying capabilities, and I consider that a fact rather than opinion.

Carrying a single stage is OK, but adding two or three, whilst possible, isn't exactly pleasant as you get that "hemmed in" feeling.

Will agree that "definitely" a better way of diving needed some clarification! Backmount is easier for deeper dives simply as there's more space to hang stages. But rebreathers are the way to go for those dives simply because the gas limits and costs are removed; again backmounted to mount all the bailout stages.

Sidemount is so much more simple when diving solo. Everything's to hand and you've got proper redundancy. It's also a lot easier to carry single sidemount cylinders over shingle beaches than a twinset and a lot easier to get kitted up too.

 

[Atlantic Explorer]

Sidemount's definitely a better way of diving.

nope.

 

[RayfromTX]

When I learned sidemount, I had the opportunity to learn it with UTD and to dive the manifold system. It seemed insane so I went a different direction with the same instructor. It still seems like what you give up for what you get is an indication that someone was too focused on solving a problem they perceived and lost track of the bigger broader picture. It seems more like that now than it did then.

Sidemount is my favorite way to dive because it keeps the weight off my back usually. There are times when I'm forced to walk out with everything attached and I'm really glad it isn't at the beginning and end of every dive. At least if I throw my back out it's after I'm finished and not just as I'm starting, in which case it might manifest 20 minutes later when I'm at 40 meters and make a movement that trips a trigger and locks me up. I am very careful before diving.

I also like that I can go anywhere and grab some tanks and jump in the water without assembling a doubles set. Here in Mexico I see lots of sidemount. I don't see doubles. They exist but not where I can find them. My wife would be unable to walk with a set of doubles. She would be unable to operate an isolation valve. I kinda like diving with my wife. Sidemount is more fiddly and it is joyful. Doing tech diving isn't really something that is afraid of fiddly. There is a lot of fiddly in scuba diving if you add a second and third tank.

I will say this. If you are ever faced with performing a warhammer maneuver, you will be better served by back mount than side mounted near empty aluminum tanks. Just saying.