Is training needed for an OW diver to switch to necklaced secondary and primary donate?

[Lorenzoid]

I didn't answer the poll because "it depends." It depends on the diver's personality/aptitude and how much he wants to or has the attention span to watch videos online and figure it out on his own versus have someone actually show him the ropes and give him immediate feedback. It may depend on the length of the hose, as there may be a difference in technique between a 40" hose and a 7-ft hose. I believe the best way to learn anything is a combination of study and live feedback. To learn something a bit more complicated, like the frog kick, you can watch videos, but it's no substitute for having someone critique you in person. Then watch some more videos, practice on your own, and go back for more in-person feedback, rinse and repeat. But back on the subject of donating the long hose, I recall finding it kind of awkward at first in Fundies class, but after a few hundred S-Drills I would think I have it down now. And yet, every now and then when we're doing S-Drills, I forget to untuck the hose, or when we turn to head for the exit the hose flops in front of my face because I forgot to move it behind my head. So, there may be some not-so-obvious (to every OW diver) things to learn about it (which may or may not come across in every video out there) if one wants to be prepared to do it in a real situation without making a mess of it. Lots of things about diving seem easy when considered in isolation, but when you're trying to do it all together it can help to get input from people who have been there before.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

A long hose is actually more streamlined than a typical 40" hose that sticks out.

 

[tbone1004]

What is necessary?

Nothing more than spending about $15 on Ebay for a rubber necklace to hold your octo and possibly swapping out one or two of your existing hoses if they're too long or too short but truth be told most hoses can be used as is. Sure we'd all like to know we can offer a distressed diver a regulator on a 6' hose but that's not entirely practical for those of us who travel a lot and/or prefer streamlined gear and don't want to be encumbered with a long hose that we probably won't ever use in a lifetime of diving.

on that we actually make our students perform all of their OOA drills on the rental regs "as configured" which usually means primary donate is done from the short hose. They really don't like that

 

[MichaelMc]

My hope is for a sense of the communities view on the guidance or training needed to make a switch if an OW diver wanted to, from those with training or new diver mentoring experience. It is a question that keeps coming up embedded in other threads. In general. I already dive this way myself.

I'm hoping to avoid a debate on if necklace secondary and primary donate is good. Or if OOA must be smooth or optimized for. There is a poll option for 'its a bad idea anyway'.

Also trying to avoid worries about length. I'm not implying 5' or 7'. There are shorter options as well. Though as Lorenzoid points out, length likely plays a factor in how much guidance or training is needed. Deploying a 40" primary is likely not harder than deploying the oct, once the octo is in hand. 7' around the head adds other issues. Related worries, v.s. secondary donate, about needing to do your own reg swap falls under 'its a bad idea anyway'.

 

[Bob DBF]

I voted other.

My thinking is along the lines of @Lorenzoid, it depends on the diver and what they need in order to become proficient.

When I was trying out configurations I did not need assistance. I determined that a real long hose, although in some ways superior, would not work well with the snorkel that I use extensively, so I use a 40" with the bungeed backup.

Another diver, say out of OW and unsure of their skills, may be more comfortable with an instructors assistance. It's all a matter of what one thinks is necessary. It's also a skill to be honest with oneself in assessing your abilities, regardless of what you tell others.




Bob

 

[2airishuman]

When I was starting out, I did my pool sessions in gear provided by the (tech oriented) shop. They did not allow OWD students to use a BP/W mainly because they had problems in the past with students who simply could not complete the "remove and replace scuba kit underwater" skill in a BP/W. The jacket BCs they used had octos.

I did my open water checkout sessions with a BP/W and long hose. Sharing air was never a big deal. Managing the long hose on deck and in the water took some practice. Removing and replacing the scuba kit was never difficult for me.

It is possible to use a long hose with a snorkel if you practice that way and remember it is there.

I have since switched to a 40" hose for most dives, but still use primary donate. I have taught my kids the same way, and one has switched from a jacket to a BP/W after maybe 10 dives.

 

[Lobzilla]

A long hose is actually more streamlined than a typical 40" hose that sticks out.

+1
With the longer hose you go parallel to the tank straight down to your right hip, across your chest, around your neck and there is no extra drag or snag hazard anywhere. You do not need a swivel connector for comfort even if you can turn your head like an owl. The extra weight of a few feet of LP hose won't even register on a baggage scale.

I voted "tune up from instructor who dives that way" because there are so many misconceptions and ways to make things more complicated.

 

[bergersau]

I didn't vote. I think any of the options 1,2,4 or 5 could work depending on the diver concerned. Some people learn differently to others and some simply need more personal training.

I think you could come unstuck with option 3 'any instructor' however, as a 'zero to hero' instructor who has been sheltered in the PADI system may have never dived a primary donate necklaced secondary setup. I'd prefer advice from someone who actually dives that system.

There are traps for the unwary like failing to wrap the long hose last when gearing up and trapping it under other gear such as slung tanks, drysuit inflator hose or cameras.

 

[Ouvea]

I don't think a class is necessary to learn something that could be explained in a couple of minutes.

The video example is obviously performed by someone who has trained with the long hose and who has practiced the maneuver to nausea. There's more to the long hose than just that motion. You need to learn it's strength and weaknesses. You also need to learn to clip bolt snaps to your shoulder D-rings, otherwise it's a huge mess and a liability. The new diver also needs to learn the proper order. The necklace first then primary. How many of us have seen others trap their long hose or have caught it, as part of the equipment verification?

Seen plenty of people with long hoses exiting or entering the water without the second stage clip to the right D-Right. Trying to retrieve a long hose behind your back is next to impossible. What if the second stage gets wedged between some equipment? When you deploy that long hose. What do you do with the extra length? Why do even have 7ft? Sure, passing the hose over your head and grabbing your necklace doesn't seem hard. It's the other aspects of the gear that you need to learn.

Perhaps the safest avenue is through a formal class, from an agency that has this as part of its core equipment configuration. However, I have a feeling that if the student wants to truly learn, instead of "looking cool," it can be handled through more informal methods.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

I've never met anyone who needed a class to learn to clip bolt snaps to your shoulder D-rings, but I guess they are out there.