Is there a valid reason for a pony bottle

[barth]

So you take your friends on vacation with you! I normally take my family.

If the goal of the holiday is diving I leave my family at home. Otherwise everybody is frustrated. I’m frustrated because I didn’t dive enough. And my wife is frustrated because I did to much diving. Location is also a compromise if I travel with my wife + dive gear.

When I go on holiday with family I leave my divegear at home.

 

[doctormike]

You continue to make excuses for diving a pony that could easily be remedied by better diving. If I'm diving deep, I'm wearing isolated doubles.

What's the difference between isolated doubles and a pony? I mean, in terms of gear. I understand that from a planning point of view, isolated doubles are closer to a stage bottle than a pony, but from a redundancy point of view, it's the same thing, right?

 

[NAUI Wowie]

What are you on about? I was talking about pony bottles, not rental kit.

FYI I don’t ever dive rental.

Ok I get it you are taking the first context. My point is what if a reg you own does something wrong at depth. Not likely and not likely with mine, after all these near misses I got the best atomic reg I could buy with the longest service interval allowed. not that ill wait that long. but for me a pony is a desired and now owned part of basic kit. whats another thing added to it, eh.... I mean ive also been in drift dives where im leading along and one guy stops to take off his mask at 75 feet and is trying to get spit into it. the DM is focused on him and im now finning back against a strong current to stay within a safe range, cascading issues at that point could have ruined someones day. the dude had his mask off for about a minute. The DM started getting panicky about it.

Stuff happens, almost every dive trip wierd things happen.

better safe than sorry.

and general fyi we were all three close together but they went close to the wall to do the mask work. Two seconds later were pretty far apart.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

What's the difference between isolated doubles and a pony? I mean, in terms of gear. I understand that from a planning point of view, isolated doubles are closer to a stage bottle than a pony, but from a redundancy point of view, it's the same thing, right?

I usually dived with twin 120s, a 40 with 50% and another 40 with 100%. If I ever had to shut down the isolator, I would still have access to both tanks. A pony is a smaller tank that you would go to in the event of a total and instant loss of gas. There are more airplanes falling from the sky than total first stage failures. I'll take my chances.

 

[NAUI Wowie]

I've seen recommendations to dispose tires after 6 years, no matter how deep tread is; though I don't know about Dubai. Off topic, but I doubt that heat works differently in Dubai because the heat damage to the tires also comes from the inside, not from the outside. Most of the heat comes from flexing the rubber when the wheels rotate, not from the ambient temperature. The outside air actually cools down the tire at car's speed, even when it is 110F. The heat inside the tire, however, has nowhere to escape except through the rubber itself, but rubber is a poor heat transmitter.

This is far far far more important on motorcycle tires.You should especially never use old tires on a moto trackday or in wet weather. Even if the tires have never been used.

 

[caruso]

I have dived in Cozumel and the Philippines. I didn't see any divers with ponies nor did I see anyone run out of air. Perhaps you were at a different resort. I've been certified for nearly thirty years. I worked at a dive shop for eight years and worked as a DM on SoCal boats. I only know two divers who carry a pony bottle. One who abuses it and one who is a fairly new diver and is sometimes nervous about going below sixty feet.

All your posts are based on your egocentric view of the world and your own personal experiences. If you've never had a car accident you'd be going around telling everyone they don't need car insurance.

 

[doctormike]

I usually dived with twin 120s, a 40 with 50% and another 40 with 100%. If I ever had to shut down the isolator, I would still have access to both tanks. A pony is a smaller tank that you would go to in the event of a total and instant loss of gas. There are more airplanes falling from the sky than total first stage failures. I'll take my chances.

You said isolated doubles. Did you mean manifolded doubles? Not being snarky, might be another term for the same thing. I was assuming you meant doubles that you were diving as independent doubles (i.e. isolator closed).

Isolated doubles: Two scuba tanks, with a single first stage and one or more second stages.

Single tank and pony: Two scuba tanks, each with a single first stage and one or more second stages.

So if you are diving "deep" (remember, we are in basic, so no references to deco), you feel that isolated doubles are appropriate, but a pony tank isn't?

 

[johndiver999]

What's the difference between isolated doubles and a pony? I mean, in terms of gear. I understand that from a planning point of view, isolated doubles are closer to a stage bottle than a pony, but from a redundancy point of view, it's the same thing, right?

No, There could be a big difference in complexity, resolution of problems during an emergency and also task loading. Independent doubles require careful gas monitoring and regulator switches. In the event of say a first stage problem or failure or leak or o-ring or hose compromise, it might be quite difficult to immediately determine which of the two tanks has a problem (behind your neck and out of sight). Conversely, with a single tank behind you, a failure behind your neck is going to be associated with just one tank and you probably don't need to be diagnosing it or fiddling with valves or contorting your shoulders and elbow..

With a slung pony, when the primary tank becomes a problem, you reach down to a reg and valve that you can easily see and manipulate and utilize in less than 10 seconds and then go up. You don't need to necessarily diagnose what is going on behind your head. And if the pony reg has a problem, it is much easier to feather the valve off and on with a slung pony, compared to a tank behind your back.

I think the complexity of independent doubles (and definitely manifolded doubles with 3 valves) is quite different than a slung pony. They are not necessarily equivalent in several regards.

edit: Now a back mounted pony - that would be more similar to independent doubles.

 

[NAUI Wowie]

Because one that does not feel that a pony should be a mandatory peice of dive gear on every dive, does not make one a detractor.

From my reading of this thread there are two sides, one believes that taking a pony should be determined by the needs of the dive, the other side feels a pony should be taken on every dive.

So far the pony on every dive side is the most vocal. I understand that from UK and other divers who are normally in real cold water and those usually diving on the edge of technical.

To the OP, should you still be reading:
There are valid reasons for a pony bottle. I believe it depends on the dive plan and ones risk tolerance and the agreement of your buddy/team. Good luck in coming up with an answer from this TMI thread.



Bob

I think you missed two more sides. There are at least four sides in this thread.

3rd side are those who think ponys should never be used.

4th side are those like me that think its crazy to be telling us we shouldnt use a pony at all. not that ill use a pony every dive or maybe i will who knows. depends on dive buddy and dive situation. maybe that makes me one of your two sides.

 

[NAUI Wowie]

I’m certainly not pat of the DIR crowd and yet I expect buddies to stay close enough to donate gas. That is a traditional aspect of being a buddy. Same ocean buddies require solo practices.

It seems to me then that the pro side is using two bogus arguments

1 - redundancy means a pony.
2 - your buddy will be useless.

The proper, low risk, answer to 1 is a twinset. A second, not so low risk one, is a big enough pony. For 2, well if they are solo diving see 1 plus a few other things.

Where I am from a pony is 3l. I have never seen anyone use a smaller one. The sarcasm at the surface would prove fatal. Personally I think that 3l probably ok to about 20m and just about ok for 30m, but that a twinset is certainly ok (assuming you can work it which is a whole other issue)

I think there is some self delusion going on here. When stuff goes wrong it isn’t exactly the clean example from training. Planning on a low SAC to hold up seems like a bad idea.

To any basic divers. Don’t ever think a 1l tank is for breathing from.

You definitely like trying to set up a black and white situation and then argue strawman against them. Its literally what you are doing. People are not saying redundancy is a pony. it can be any number of things. However pony is way easier for rec divers than going out and setting up twinsets and diving like that off tropical small boats..... as for buddies some are actually not just useless but a danger. And others are awesome.

You cant just make up statements then argue against them that is the basis of strawman.