Is there a valid reason for a pony bottle

[Fastmarc]

It's impossible to avoid some repeating. It's a pretty long thread.

I actually think it's good to see the different points of views. Educational IMO.

Nothing here has even come close to having me question my decision to carry one and I totally understand one's choice. After all, I do subscribe to the Dive and let Dive.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

One thing that consistently comes up as a reason for using a pony is buddy separation. Being alone underwater does not mean out of air. It does not mean you are suddenly in a panic situation. If someone feels that they are unable to complete a dive without another diver next to them, perhaps more training is needed. It takes a catastrophic loss of air to need a pony. A blown hose, free flowing reg or extruded O-ring is an emergency situation that requires an immediate ascent, however, in those situations, you would still be able to breathe while ascending. Only a complete first stage shut down, which would be extremely rare, especially with maintained gear is the only time a pony would be absolutely necessary.
Pushing ndl with a single tank or putting yourself in potentially hazardous situations at depth are easily avoidable, yet we keep hearing posters claim that is why they need a pony.

 

[lexvil]

Poor vis isn't an excuse for losing a buddy. Many, many many peopel dive in crap vis without losing a buddy.

And you'd have to be pretty unlucky to lose a buddy and have a catastrophic failure in the time it takes to look for your buddy (1 min recommended) and then make a controlled ascent to the surface?

Please tell us about your typicle dive conditions.

 

[lexvil]

One thing that consistently comes up as a reason for using a pony is buddy separation. Being alone underwater does not mean out of air. It does not mean you are suddenly in a panic situation. If someone feels that they are unable to complete a dive without another diver next to them, perhaps more training is needed. It takes a catastrophic loss of air to need a pony. A blown hose, free flowing reg or extruded O-ring is an emergency situation that requires an immediate ascent, however, in those situations, you would still be able to breathe while ascending. Only a complete first stage shut down, which would be extremely rare, especially with maintained gear is the only time a pony would be absolutely necessary.
Pushing ndl with a single tank or putting yourself in potentially hazardous situations at depth are easily avoidable, yet we keep hearing posters claim that is why they need a pony.

Do you need an octo?

 

[MaxBottomtime]

Do you need an octo?

No. I was taught to buddy breathe. I have an octo and have used it on one occasion to extend the dive for my buddy and once for my friend who ran out of air twice, with a pony. In that incident, we were at ten feet and I told him to go up but he grabbed my reg.

 

[MichaelMc]

"Dive with a solid buddy or don't dive" is fine, *if* you and your buddy are both at that point. Otherwise, no diving? How do you get better? How do you *know* a diver you called/met will be a solid buddy?

If you feel this is the only world, and that the below do not exist, I'm not sure what more to say.

"Accompany/mentor new diver that works at staying close as buddy" is a very good thing to do, but their helpfulness is unknown. Should you go to X depth, current, kelp with a buddy whose reactions are unknown? And avoid having any backup on you?

"Chase your sketchy/uncaring/inept buddy' is fine, for *them*, but doesn't give you a buddy, and gets old.

"Brief your sketchy buddy you will not keep chasing them if they want to be same ocean buddies; and carry a pony." Puts them in unprepared solo territory, yes; but you were already in solo territory, at least you can be somewhat prepared and work at training yourself.

Yes, a suitable sized pony as defense against ineffective buddy is moving to self reliant/solo territory. And may cause you to stop chasing your buddy. But self reliant is part of the top of the Padi rec curriculum and recommends a redundant air supply on you. Why would following that recommendation be controversial?

 

[lexvil]

No. I was taught to buddy breathe. I have an octo and have used it on one occasion to extend the dive for my buddy and once for my friend who ran out of air twice, with a pony. In that incident, we were at ten feet and I told him to go up but he grabbed my reg.

I was also taught to buddy breath, it may be why I prefer the octo/inflator although I sometimes dive the long hose donate short neckless set up, the reality is newer divers aren’t well versed in buddy breathing so an alternative isn’t a bad idea. You can take every argument, for and against, the pony and exchange the octo for pony and they pretty much all work the same. Pony/bail out/stage bottles are not taught in basic courses, yet but they may be in the future just like the octo is taught now.

I’ve started carrying one just to get used to it being there and just like an octo I will likely never “need” it but it causes no harm and someday it may do some good.

 

[2airishuman]

Its amazing what can happen if you have a thoughtful and thorough conversation with your potential buddy before the dive. If it doesn't line up, buddy with someone else. If you're routinely getting separated, consider what the common factor is.

I always find it amazing. that in all the post/threads about poor buddies. It's always the other person's fault. My opinion is that to lose a buddy requires inattention from both parties

Poor vis isn't an excuse for losing a buddy. Many, many many peopel dive in crap vis without losing a buddy. And you'd have to be pretty unlucky to lose a buddy and have a catastrophic failure in the time it takes to look for your buddy (1 min recommended) and then make a controlled ascent to the surface?

I think the thing to realize is that the "insta-buddy" experience is highly variable. Depends on the dive op, depends on the location, depends on the circumstances of the dive.

I was on one dive boat where I was buddied up with a very experienced diver who preferred to dive solo and was told he couldn't. He said at the beginning of the dive that I could follow him around if I wanted but that he was going to be shooting photos. I lost him halfway through the dive, and surfaced; he didn't, I went back to the boat. In hindsight I believe he made a deliberate attempt to lose me by swimming over a ridge when he knew I wasn't watching. Second dive on the trip the boat buddied me up with someone else and let him dive solo.

It was a shallow dive so it didn't matter much.

Even if your skills are fantastic they aren't necessarily going to be right there when you need them. Some people are clueless and have no situational awareness at all. If my first stage blows a diaphragm at 90 feet I don't want to have to chase somebody down who is swimming in the opposite direction.

 

[Gareth J]

I was also taught to buddy breath, it may be why I prefer the octo/inflator although I sometimes dive the long hose donate short neckless set up, the reality is newer divers aren’t well versed in buddy breathing so an alternative isn’t a bad idea. You can take every argument, for and against, the pony and exchange the octo for pony and they pretty much all work the same. Pony/bail out/stage bottles are not taught in basic courses, yet but they may be in the future just like the octo is taught now.

I’ve started carrying one just to get used to it being there and just like an octo I will likely never “need” it but it causes no harm and someday it may do some good.

Be aware, for many training agencies, buddy breathing is no longer taught. Some agencies state that buddy breathing should not be taught full stop!
Even those (like myself) who where originally taught buddy breathing, have probably not practiced it as an exercise in the last 12 months. I used to do a lot of ascents from 20m (60ft) buddy breathing as a principle examiner. It was certainly not easy, and it was not unusual that we had to abort the exercise. To be honest, it convinced me that most people would probably do a CESA to the surface, or die in the attempt. The annual incident analysis showed that year in year out, which was one of the drivers to drop buddy breathing from the Diver Training Program (DTP).
The Octopus is a great safety improvement over the previous buddy breathing procedure.
Like the contents gauge is an improvement over the J valve.

 

[happy-diver]

When one of the guys left his regs behind he came diving with us in a series of 10m deep interconnected ponds
using everyones octo.

Except mine, I felt a bit dejected